Absolute Annihilation 2.11

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 14 Aug 2006, 22:29

Egarwaen wrote:
Pxtl wrote:Junos are uninterceptable?
Oh, hm. Good point. I'm not actually sure.

Tacnukes are uninterceptable to prevent them from being used to distract or empty the ABMs (although decoy warheads are used in modern MIRVs so a decoy nuke launcher might be a justifiable unit), I suppose the same goes for the Juno.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 14 Aug 2006, 22:39

Yeah, that was what I was thinking. Though that wouldn't work more than once, as the anti-nuke and its missiles are cheaper than a Juno, so as soon as someone tries that, you can start spamming anti-nukes and prevent them.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 14 Aug 2006, 23:49

Pxtl wrote: Agreed. The autoheal for most non "combat autorepair" units is slow enough that it rarely has any actual effect on battle outcomes - it just saves the player the tedium of repairing units.

is so tedius? one con unit, drag repair... OMG SO HARD!!!! :O

Think about it. ACULLY HAVING TO HEAL YOUR UNITS. I mean, really, imange it. going to the back of the feild to be healed by a group of cons, then come back with new strengt! Picture a normal battle. My units hurt many of your units, but dosen't finish them off. The autoheal will make force much stronger, with no cost at all. If you where forced to heal your units, your damage units might have to retreat!

I agree with many of stanleys post (1,5,9,11,14,15 to be presise.). He's a wise guy pepole, (or atleast not the sugar addicted dimwit you make him out to be:P) stop shunning his ideas as soon as you hear them. Use the nugget of yours. "if we edited AA in this and this way, what would happen?"

Lathan, such tihngs are *very* well balanced; the key is learning how to use them and counter them in turn.

Just because it's balance dosen't mean it could't be better.

Take a look at the Cons which i selected above. Remove the staint of crazyness to them, and their acully VERY good ideas! Here, i will reformulate it for you.

Would't AA be better if you had to activly use repair on units that are damaged?(1) if the gap between the 2 sides where enchated to build more uniqeness in playstyle and units, (in level 3 for exameple) and give the diffrences of two sides the way the creators(oh yes, i know AA is not OTA, you don't need to point it out.) intended?(9) if metal was a fight to get your hands on, even in late game?(11)

Offcourse, no one builds alien tech, so that's really nothing to worry about .

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 14 Aug 2006, 23:52

Revert back to 1.12 ftw. I know drex will agree with me on this one ;p

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 15 Aug 2006, 00:07

Kixxe wrote:
Pxtl wrote: Agreed. The autoheal for most non "combat autorepair" units is slow enough that it rarely has any actual effect on battle outcomes - it just saves the player the tedium of repairing units.
is so tedius? one con unit, drag repair... OMG SO HARD!!!! :O

Think about it. ACULLY HAVING TO HEAL YOUR UNITS. I mean, really, imange it. going to the back of the feild to be healed by a group of cons, then come back with new strengt! Picture a normal battle. My units hurt many of your units, but dosen't finish them off. The autoheal will make force much stronger, with no cost at all. If you where forced to heal your units, your damage units might have to retreat!

I agree with many of stanleys post (1,5,9,11,14,15 to be presise.). He's a wise guy pepole, (or atleast not the sugar addicted dimwit you make him out to be:P) stop shunning his ideas as soon as you hear them. Use the nugget of yours. "if we edited AA in this and this way, what would happen?"

Lathan, such tihngs are *very* well balanced; the key is learning how to use them and counter them in turn.
Just because it's balance dosen't mean it could't be better.

Take a look at the Cons which i selected above. Remove the staint of crazyness to them, and their acully VERY good ideas! Here, i will reformulate it for you.

Would't AA be better if you had to activly use repair on units that are damaged?(1) if the gap between the 2 sides where enchated to build more uniqeness in playstyle and units, (in level 3 for exameple) and give the diffrences of two sides the way the creators(oh yes, i know AA is not OTA, you don't need to point it out.) intended?(9) if metal was a fight to get your hands on, even in late game?(11)

Offcourse, no one builds alien tech, so that's really nothing to worry about .

Thats 1 ok point out of 10 tons of crap.
Wise isnt a word Id use to describe a guy who posts about how badly a mod is unbalanced when he BLATANTLY has barely played it ^^

I generally move my units back and repair them with farks anyway, apart froma mav obviously) and if you move youre units out of battle to auto heal, its generally behind your lines anyway which, chances are is usually near a factory.
the two sides do have uniqueness ffs, and its well balanced uniqueness too.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 15 Aug 2006, 00:09

Egarwaen wrote:Yeah, that was what I was thinking. Though that wouldn't work more than once, as the anti-nuke and its missiles are cheaper than a Juno, so as soon as someone tries that, you can start spamming anti-nukes and prevent them.

The trick with a minefield is not that a minefield is present, it's that your enemy thinks a minefield is present. Spamming antinukes might just be a waste of ressources if your enemy was only planning to distract you. Especially if you have to pull up new antinuke units to get better coverage.

BTW, would it work as psychological warfare to start constructing a silo, making sure your enemy sees it and then stopping construction so the ressources aren't really used up?

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 15 Aug 2006, 00:43

erm kixxie, did you even read what lathan typed up? if you did you'd see that all bar one, perhaps two points at the most, consisted of absolute bollocks..

LathanStanley · Post by **LathanStanley** » 15 Aug 2006, 02:28

I'm toooo much of a 1997-1998 gamer....

I played this game rutuialistically back in the day... got real damn good at it too...

its been awhile since I dug into a game of AA.. maybe like 5 months... I'm sure much has changed

but last time I was playin, those were the biggest.. wtf? you can do that? strangeness events and differences from the origional feel of the game I saw...

when AA came out in 1999, it was initially an EXPANSION, an extension of units.. not a complete re-vamp of everything....

and with the constructors... have any of you ever played the REAL OTA?

you might be able to stack 4 or 5 guys on 1 factory with a fence of dragon teeth holding them there....

this game, I've seen over 50 guys on one factory.. thats just ludicrious...

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 15 Aug 2006, 02:33

KDR_11k wrote:
Egarwaen wrote:Yeah, that was what I was thinking. Though that wouldn't work more than once, as the anti-nuke and its missiles are cheaper than a Juno, so as soon as someone tries that, you can start spamming anti-nukes and prevent them.
The trick with a minefield is not that a minefield is present, it's that your enemy thinks a minefield is present. Spamming antinukes might just be a waste of ressources if your enemy was only planning to distract you. Especially if you have to pull up new antinuke units to get better coverage.

BTW, would it work as psychological warfare to start constructing a silo, making sure your enemy sees it and then stopping construction so the ressources aren't really used up?

I did something like that in E&E once... I built a dummy minefield of maybe six mines, a long distance from my base - if I had built my standard three layer mine field I would have had maybe 96 mines there - minimum. I then simply fielded units and pulled back when under attack for the foe to enter the "field" (Marked at corners with dragon's teeth) and taste a few mines as my turrets and reinforced troops came to bear.

That effectively made one GD guy go air in an attempt to get across without losing units.

LathanStanley · Post by **LathanStanley** » 15 Aug 2006, 02:38

oh, and I not once resorted to name calling.

thats well... childish.

but back on topic, the resource things I spoke of, WERE in spring, awhile back, if they pulled them out... good deal.

I'm gonna shut my mouth now, cause the general consensus is "Lathan shut up."

I'm sorry if I try to post some observations of AA and possibly previous AA so that they do not get re-implemented, or to the very least, get you people thinking...

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 15 Aug 2006, 02:51

Lathan, the last thing thing i want to get involved in is some retarded ad hominem faggotry

I simply happen to disagree with your points mate

And as for your point about constructors - that's really not true. Thanks to TA's aircraft stacking, it was very possible to have even a 100 air craft powerbuilding a krogoth.

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 15 Aug 2006, 02:59

BTW guys, back to the nuke/antinuke tacticalmirv/Interception system ideas.

Caydr explained this one to me a while back, and this isn't really an issue with it being a great idea or not.

Currently it is not possible within the game engine, its never been coded in that way.

As is, any missle that uses the "can_be_intercepted" tag shares that same weapon tag as the NUKE.

You could make anything trigger an Anti_nuke silo launch, but you can't have more than 1 Anti_nuke interception system to deal with more than 1 weapon type, yet.

In the end, you would need to get the coders to set it up to allow 2 distinct methods of interception, sombody would have to make a clone ANTI_missle unit, and go from there.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 15 Aug 2006, 03:00

Actually, Lathan, you did make me think about a few things. Well, to be honest, some of them I was already on to. I agree with all your Pro comments, and a few of the Con statements...

LathanStanley wrote: #1 Auto-repair on everything, everywhere. ONLY THE COMMANDER should do this, ever.

I like autorepair on everything, and I use constructors for repair anyway. I don't want the main mod to change, but if there was a mutator that removed autorepair, I would use it on occasion.

LathanStanley wrote:#2 The EXTEREMETIES units get to.. I mean c'mon, a level 3 k-bot, capable of annihiliting an ENTIRE BASE... BY ITSELF!! that can scale near vertical walls?? who cares what it costs, its unstoppable..

Yeah, I agree with this one. I always thought that the L3 should be very powerful and very specialized - as it is I feel dirty using most of them, so often I don't even go L3.

#3 The ... ZERO reclaim time on any kinda fortification wall, and the inability to simply blow them up with artillery...

I dislike this as well. The artillery issue is an engine fault.

#4 The uberduper omfg!roxorz leet rage of ALL construction units... namely nano-towers... They were limited on range in the old game to somewhat limit the "stackable" builders on a single factory... and planes, were ALOT more expensive and built, ALOT slower....

I would like reduced range for construction assistance from units, but think that actually building is fine at the current ranges. I do hate seeing 300 farks on one damn factory.

#5 Commander + any rubble anywhere after death, rubble = bad.

I like the rubble and the ability to rez Commanders... or was that not your point? We can't build them, we might as well rez them. Whole different dynamic.

#6 effectiveness of some amphibious units.... they are a wildcard to catch people by suprise, not a main assault.

Some are useless, some are insane. It's a mixed bag.

#7 Artillery? on a plane? gimmie a break... YES! SABOT ROUNDS ARE ARTILERY!

Heh.

#8 Too easy to porc, towers have TOOO much range, the damage to cost ratio is good... but they simply start doing damage TOOO far out overall..

I disagree, as I usually find an unsupported tower, no matter how expensive, is toast in seconds. However, the Porc comment may have merit.

#9 ORCONES!.... what happened to CORE being the being the gun/atrillery holder on a tracked tank, and ARM being a big lazer holder on a faster mech? I mean, I KNOW kroggy is damn good... DAMN good... but core ALWAYS had the bigger tanks/units... ARM was just more powerful in the hands of a better player.... but to keep the same simillar units for the most part, and give the ARM the biggest unit in the game? sigh... flashtank fanboys...

The Orcone looks smaller than the Krogothe... but I always thought it was too bland. A smaller one with different weapons would be more interesting.

#10 moveable bertha... on land, and sea.. if a stationary one isn't bad enough, lets make one CHEAPER THAT MOVES!!!

I agree with you.

#11 the abundance of "easy to get metal" and "tightly crammed energy" from JUST BUILDINGS!! -resource factories(+150 metal), metal generators (+1 metal regardless?), cloakable metak makers... twice the metal of a moho metal maker, smaller size, and it cloaks for only about 2.2x the cost?!!?! why would anyone EVER make good ole regular mohos? alien bla bla bla uber nuke reactor +5000 energy etc.. what happened to solar plant, farms with scattered nuke reactors... ?? made you HAVE TO GET BIGGER TO GET MORE POWER!, and FIND MORE METAL TO GET MORE METAL! not to mention that the WHOLE REASON WARS ARE FOUGHT IS OVER RESOURCES! and well... if resources are free... then, the war is pointless...

That might be a point to address. I am sick of Fusion Farms.

#12 the fact that #11 buildings are SOOOO tough, they can all survive multiple nukes... a nuke USED to be bad news if it hit a nuke reactor... now its laughable...

I agree here - though I believe a nuke does kill all of them but the reactors.

#13 sumo's as offense... lol, thats funny... but... you made them VERY FRAKKAN! FAST!... its well.. a bit obsurd... sumos had their place as defense around the heart of the base... where there weren't many "fast" arm tanks that could penetrate the core defensive line, and the sumos could guard the factories without clogging them up... and make quick work of the few mortys and few bulldogs that did break through and outrun the slow ass goliaths.....

They're fast? I suppose a speed nerf wouldn't hurt them too much.

#14 "alien tech radar"... what happened to the strategy of forward radar posts? defending your forward posts? etc? why bother, build 2 or three of these, and you have radar for life...

I don't like the hyperwhatevercrazyglue radar, and I think the long-range ones could stand to lose some coverage. However, we do have the Juno.

LathanStanley · Post by **LathanStanley** » 15 Aug 2006, 03:09

sumos used to be "THE SLOWEST" unit in the game, (and it was like version 1.4 something, they were faster than most level 2 tanks..), but yeah, sumo's were slower than crawling bombs moving uphill even...

they were stupid crazy tough, about 4x as tough as a goliath, has "almost" as good of range, and did a ton of damage, and VERY FAST tracking ability...

they were the end all, beat all.. to stopping flash tanks...

if a flash tank attacked the core base, and there were 2 or 3 sumo's there.... the tanks were toast...

using sumo's as offense though, was pointless... 1 level 1 artillery battery would kick them in the balls so hard before they got within range... lol

not to mention that they had a HELLOVA time with rubble.. couldn't fire over it, since they were laser damage, couldn't destroy it, and definatley couldn't maneuver through it..

limiting them to ONLY defense...

this is just 1 major difference between OTA and AA, and how this new AA has "re-standardized" everything...

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 15 Aug 2006, 03:11

TA Spring's engine makes the logn range uber ones not worth it anyway exept in certain situations. The line of sight/radar is blocked; even a bump inthe ground will do the trick. It is never feasible to do anything but adv radar placement at key points.

LathanStanley · Post by **LathanStanley** » 15 Aug 2006, 03:16

that reminds me of another thing...

RADAR JAMMERS!!

those just stop the ability of a normal paced game, and draw it out to oblivion...

sigh, when there was no jammers, besides the few k-bots...

it was better, you build a artillery cannon, it'll fire and hit targets.. you don't have to go guessing, scouting, gussing again, etc...

you had a weakness.. it was the facty a foward radar COULD see your base...

but since you made UBER radar.. you had to "counter" it.. and made UBER radar jammers...

again, the notion of make something BETTER, then counter it with something even BETTER...

sigh... I'm done

mastermat · Post by **mastermat** » 15 Aug 2006, 03:47

so here's a thought, make a small range radar that can see through radar jammers, that forces the player to create forward radar posts, and defend them.

the one downside is that this would limit the ability to use mobile jammers to create a surprise attack. this would be easily fixed by sending a few tanks to take out the relatively less defended jammers before leaving on a sneak attack.

ooo another idea while i'm here, make those radars unable to be jammed, this will ensure that the enemy knows where forward posts are, and also limit it's use in the acutal base, for fear of giving the game away, thereby making ground sneak attacks still viable

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 15 Aug 2006, 04:14

Such short-range radars already exist. They're called "Dragon's Eyes".

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 15 Aug 2006, 05:10

neddiedrow wrote:Yeah, I agree with this one. I always thought that the L3 should be very powerful and very specialized - as it is I feel dirty using most of them, so often I don't even go L3.

Why? For the most part, L3 isn't worth the cash. Either you're going to win anyway, in which case you're better off spamming smaller units or maybe the lower-end L3s, or you're not, in which case going L3 won't help you.

I would like reduced range for construction assistance from units, but think that actually building is fine at the current ranges. I do hate seeing 300 farks on one damn factory.

Why? A mob of Farks costs lots and is bomber bait.

#10 moveable bertha... on land, and sea.. if a stationary one isn't bad enough, lets make one CHEAPER THAT MOVES!!!
I agree with you.

Except you're wrong. It's more expensive, it's more fragile, and it's barely faster than a Sumo.

That might be a point to address. I am sick of Fusion Farms.

You shouldn't get Fusion Farms on any sane map. If you do... Bomber time!

They're fast? I suppose a speed nerf wouldn't hurt them too much.

Yes it would. They're already slow as molasses, a speed nerf would make them totally useless.

I don't like the hyperwhatevercrazyglue radar, and I think the long-range ones could stand to lose some coverage. However, we do have the Juno.

Why? It's impossible to use their full range on most maps due to mountains and the jammers everyone loves to hate.

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 15 Aug 2006, 07:43

Egarwaen wrote:Why? For the most part, L3 isn't worth the cash. Either you're going to win anyway, in which case you're better off spamming smaller units or maybe the lower-end L3s, or you're not, in which case going L3 won't help you.

I'm speaking in terms of the ideal L3, not the current one. Who even uses the current one? If you have the resources the right units are obscenely powerful, but a waste of resources. If you don't have the resources it doesn't matter. I would like to see a better L3, and I have been working out replacement units to propose, that was just one of my statements in relation to it.

Why? A mob of Farks costs lots and is bomber bait.
It's then illogical for the mod to support it. Oh, and it's easier to defend a single factory with 80 constructors aiding than the four factories with nineteen/twenty each you would have in a more rational system to produce the same output.

[Big Bertha Units]

The one on the Sea is many times more useful due to the terrain. The one on land can be transported with Air.

You shouldn't get Fusion Farms on any sane map. If you do... Bomber time!
Once again, it's then illogical for the mod to support them. As they are they can resist too much damage for their placement. And I must return to the statement that it is much easier to protect a single area than many.

Yes it would. They're already slow as molasses, a speed nerf would make them totally useless.
No, they would simply be... as slow as slightly cooler molasses - they aren't there for attacks anyway. They're a rolling component of a defensive line.

Why? It's impossible to use their full range on most maps due to mountains and the jammers everyone loves to hate.

It's not impossible, you're just being difficult for the purposes of rejecting possible change. I've done it, and it's made everything so simple. A targeting station and - point and click. Oh, and when an area disappears, you know it has been jammed. Which means something worth getting rid of is there, if nothing else, the jammer.

Oh, and I dislike the long-range jammers. Any experienced player doesn't use them in battle much with those of similar skill because they're simply foolish, cutting your coverage as well. They make jamming cheap and easy in a way which makes no sense anyway. I would have them removed - the L1 jammers fit the purpose better and are more useful to boot.

Once again, we have the Juno. It's immensely useful.

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 2.11