Spring RTS Engine

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 02 Oct 2006, 21:59

I still support the idea of knocking its buildtime to 1500 and making it an l2 bot to be used in large raiding groups mid game OTA style

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 02 Oct 2006, 22:12

My favourite (theoretically, cause i've never tested) change to zippers/freaking freakers/vec scouts is making them paralizers instead.

That would remove raiding entirely from them. They're only role would become scouting and harassing (by going around paralizing the enemy cons, haha), which is suposed to be they're roles, anyway. Not uber raiders.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 02 Oct 2006, 22:41

pintle · Post by **pintle** » 02 Oct 2006, 22:48

nerf weapon up build time not cost imho

or stop whinging and build some crashers

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 02 Oct 2006, 23:52

I think they were supposed to be raiders, and I like them as raiders. It makes XTA less porcy, and requires a lot of skill early game.

Keep them as raiders, but make raiding with them risky, and only work if they havent built many missle units.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 03 Oct 2006, 01:23

Just nerf their hp slightly, having well placed missile towers / crashers stops an early zipper rush. Nerfing their hp will make them a little easier to deal with which seems to be what everyone wants.
Theyre raiding bots, they should stay that way. if you move them to level2 what can you raid with at level1 ? nothing, the other bots are waaay to slow, raiding is a part of the early game and players should be rewarded for good micro.

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 03 Oct 2006, 04:36

BigSteve wrote:Just nerf their hp slightly, having well placed missile towers / crashers stops an early zipper rush. Nerfing their hp will make them a little easier to deal with which seems to be what everyone wants.
Theyre raiding bots, they should stay that way. if you move them to level2 what can you raid with at level1 ? nothing, the other bots are waaay to slow, raiding is a part of the early game and players should be rewarded for good micro.

This is true on larger maps - on 8 x 8, zippers are too good at raiding I think. Peewees are a good choice for raiding on smaller maps.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » 03 Oct 2006, 05:04

my choice is to disable their ability to self repair.

so you cant use them for several raids.

(unless manual repair)

pintle · Post by **pintle** » 03 Oct 2006, 14:19

+1 to mong

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 03 Oct 2006, 14:25

lol in a recent game I started building zippers mid game from my l1 and l2 labs with a fark on each (with 40 metal income). the resultant horde of zippers ran straight through the defences an units of the other team and owned all the economy. late game hordes of zippers are equally dangerous as their speed means they can bypass blockades and armys by charging straight through them.

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 03 Oct 2006, 14:54

You know what the realy problem is... the only real way to counter the dam things is to build those rocket k-bots, which means that basicly everyones restricted to building the same stuff for the first few mins. Go vehincal and your screwed, they easily get away from ...samsons? thats the AA one right? Yhe, they get away from them to easily, and so if you start vehical, your done for.

aGorm

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 03 Oct 2006, 16:42

I will experiment with tiny health narf n lowering regen times as mong said, having range nerf just makes it...well....not XTA

(also having probs with the damn icons, i made a realy cool set of arm com corecom n nuke icons, but the com ones got a deafault com icon UNDER the one i implementated!)

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 03 Oct 2006, 18:08

well ive proved they are uber effective l2 raiders in that game.. why not make them level 2? then they wouldnt even need nerfing and it removes the horrid fighting zippers with no units thing at the start of the game

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo · Post by **[KnoX]ElementalGizmo** » 03 Oct 2006, 20:12

yes, unfortunatly i was on the recieving end of that fight lmao! damn gg btw

mongus · Post by **mongus** » 03 Oct 2006, 22:05

you are mistaken agorm.

let me look for the propper replay.

(and yeah i bragg!).

im finding several replays that fit this topic.

Im looking for one specifically.

you can watch this in the meantime.

Another replay about the same issue

take note, how the 2 llts and some crashers, keep zippers away in early game.

When you know you are facing zipper rush, (in large maps speed is crucial) you can build with that in mind, very possible.

llts, mts , defenders... and mobile units, not too dense, but covering the full extent of the base.

And say goodbye to zipper plague.

Point is, i was not harrased by zippers.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 03 Oct 2006, 22:40

yet again knocked out of a 3v3 in the first 5 minutes by continous zippers >_>
I think the reason they are unbalanced isnt their stats. its just they come so so early that unless you are specificly preparing for zippers you get you eco smashed beyond repair.

they can out micro a comm with their range? now thats not hip.

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 03 Oct 2006, 22:57

Speeding up the comm laser and aiming speed could certainly help against zippers, in fact most of lvl1...

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 04 Oct 2006, 04:22

mongus wrote:you are mistaken agorm.
...
take note, how the 2 llts and some crashers, keep zippers away in early game.
...

Actually i think Agorm was right.

After you had to spend the resources on the 2 expensive llts and crashers, the zipper rush already had it's effect. Your expansion capacity has been cripled. The llts won't go anywhere and the crashers are slow to control the map. You now have no raiding capabilities to chalenge the oponent's expansion who only spent the price of a few zippers. It is just as good as destroying a few buildings. It is a win-win situation.

At the moment, in most games, going zipers, crashers or a mix are the only ways without putting yourself into a disadvantage right from the start.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 04 Oct 2006, 14:06

PauloMorfeo wrote:
mongus wrote:you are mistaken agorm.
...
take note, how the 2 llts and some crashers, keep zippers away in early game.
...
Actually i think Agorm was right.

After you had to spend the resources on the 2 expensive llts and crashers, the zipper rush already had it's effect. Your expansion capacity has been cripled. The llts won't go anywhere and the crashers are slow to control the map. You now have no raiding capabilities to chalenge the oponent's expansion who only spent the price of a few zippers. It is just as good as destroying a few buildings. It is a win-win situation.

At the moment, in most games, going zipers, crashers or a mix are the only ways without putting yourself into a disadvantage right from the start.

+1

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 04 Oct 2006, 14:48

Woot, someone agrees... Basicly the frist to get a zipper to teh others base willforce the other person to adopt a very limited stratage to get rid of them.

All I can suggest is making them easyer to hit with some of teh other light lvl 1 units, As an example... jeffys have sod all range. If they had the same range as teh zipper they be able to actully hit them (at the moment byt he time its in range the zippers moved past and is still killing the thing and being a vehical it cant turn fast enough to counter). With teh range boost they would not realy be much more effect against anything exect fast units, and the only fast unit that it wuld realy matter against is the zipper.

You shuold atleast have an option what to build in a game. I've started to just build a lab and 3 whatsits all the time now just to stop this tactic cause nout else works. (not that that does either because its not HOW I want to start... its how Im forced to.)

Im Ranting arnt I? Ill stop.

aGorm