The economics of Spring mod users - Page 9

The economics of Spring mod users

Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.

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zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
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Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08

Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by zwzsg »

FLOZi wrote:Copyright *is* theft.
Copyright infringement is just the same as taking a dump in a helmet.

Sleksa wrote:I still dont understand what makes BA a evil theft of a game, whereas things like absolute annihilation (in ota) is just a mod?
Personnaly I don't understand why SourceForge accepted to host AA.
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KDR_11k
Game Developer
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Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by KDR_11k »

The "you must own TA to play *A" argument is nonsense. The problem here is the file host hosting data it is not allowed to distribute (and the mod maker uploading it). You're not allowed to upload *A, you're not allowed to host *A files. Running P2P with *A mods in your shared files will also likely lead to distribution, also not allowed. It doesn't matter what disclaimers you attach, be they "you must own the original" or "you must delete it within 24 hours". The courts have decided that downloading another copy of something you own is not an exercise of your backup or format shifting rights, you are only allowed to create copies of the copy you own.
Fotiadis_110
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Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 02:50

Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

Having only read a few posts from the early pages i noted the fact that people were arguing about what outsiders (that is new users) thought of the challenges in order simply to get INTO the game.

As a first time downloader (and having found myself unable to even play the game thanks to incorrect pre-reqs listed) i would like to make the comment that it is unphantomably difficult to work out what is going on during the install process.

It should not leave the new user wondering 'hey it should be working by now' while during a download procedure that is bringing in further updates. i don't mind the install being in several segments but it would be NICE to be able to download them all to a directory before trying to install on our relatively unstable internet connection (spending 3 hours installing and having a 'break' at 2 and a half hours is unimaginably annoying)

Given the lack of 'techwise' people that I know around me and the challenges they have with their own basic software it isn't hard to see why they prefer games that you can buy to the idea of these games that are free but so hard to find your way through!

Suggestions to the developers to appeal to a greater audience regarding the installer:
First arrange an downloader program of some sort to download the files 'bitwise' if need be so i don't have to hit the installer 6 times when downloads timeout, better still take into acccount those on 'mb/week' accounts and allow it do download set volumes of traffic (within margins) each time period, and that way if you want to use the net without blowing the budget and can wait a few weeks/days/months to finish the downloads you can.
This might spread out the install workload on your servers and reduce peak pressure, so i can see benefits 2 ways.
Secondly could you make sure the min specifications are updated so the next fool on an old P4 knows he won't have a chance?


Overall what you guys have made looks very very pretty, comparable to the other top end games out there, the problem is functionality and 'pick up and play' ability is often nicer to have over beauty. Look at TA, it is trounced even today for player base by starcraft, the learning curve for initially playing the game is steep, and most new players resolve the is a necessity to spam defences to survive the AI's first few rushes, because they lack the micro to spam out tanks as efficiency as the AI and old pro's who know the games tricks. If you want these players to learn, perhaps the only option is to have a 'friendlies' server where people simply muck about and practice new tricks and teach new players the important basics. the new players will still obviously lose, but at least the game will last at least half an hour while they learn to play correctly rather than it all being over in 10 minutes leaving them wondering 'what the XXX was that?'.

Sure it isn't 'hard core combat' but at least try to SUPPORT the newbs, for we are all newbs once.

Next Beef with the overall design happens to be the webpage. The games page introduces the games under development and currently playable, unfortunately a number of the links are dead, and I am unsure why. An idea I have to help rectify the confusion i encounted when looking through for entertainment is to move all 'final' versions of mods (that is bug fixed ones) to a first list, The alpha/beta testing mods (incomplete versions) being in a second list, and a developmental description of what/who/when of other mods fitting into a third (probably lacking installs but that's fine at least we know what's being thought up).
This would make tracking down current, close to finishing, and early day games under development easy, identifiable and give us each a far better chance of knowing what the game we are looking at is up to.



Anyway, Nice talking to all of you and hopefully I've given you a little food for thought on how to improve to make this awesome!
I love the idea of this engine Spring, shame I can't play till my next computer upgrade XD
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Gota
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Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by Gota »

Keep it coming.
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lurker
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Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by lurker »

If you use the normal options it shouldn't download anything. Is it still set to get springsettings seperately or something equally screwy? Whatever it's getting is only a couple megabytes, not something you resume and bendwidth cap over. Once you're in a lobby and feel like downloading some games and maps the sizes of most things still aren't worth any kind of automatic pausing, and the method used supports resuming.
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AF
AI Developer
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Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by AF »

The download is already complete, once the installer is downloaded, the user expects all downloading to be finished.

This is yet another reason why per game installers are so important. The installer should have the latest version of that game and all the top maps played with it. Kernel panic does this fine, no reason why every other game cant do it, and kernel panic isnt the only one trying.

If someone can step up and help fat controller with this...
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lurker
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Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by lurker »

It's already being worked on, pay attention. But to me that post really reads like he's talking about the actual installer. Can you clarify, Fotiadis?
Fotiadis_110
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Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 02:50

Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

The idea of having a download size per day potentially could ensure that the internet is s not slowed down by the fuiles anyway. the volume per day aspect is something of our local internet providers have happily charged us for for a few years, you can get a 1 gig a month plan, and if you do more than 100 mega in one day, they start charging you by the k you go over... at about 5 times the price.
Fortunately i don't have such a plan but i was thinking if your goinf to have such a program that would allow the users of dialup to potentially download their files over several weeks it would increase market penetration, and add a feature that might suit all sorts of people.

As i say i haven't got the game running sadly on my machine so i can't be too sure of the internal interface, but the point i heard earlier in this thread of the lack of tutorials is concerning, if i jump into the game how can i be expected to come to even adequacy if i am not taught the basic useful abilities. searching helpfiles and documentation is always possible but it takes time and patience, and there are alot of people out there who can't be bothered reading documentation. (i'm an exception and tend to read 80% of the EULA's that applications come with just in case, go figure.)

Apparently the progran when i downloaded the 3 files, wanted another 6 that weren't apparently needed, that was what caused the problems :p

Mind you the disconnects are problem we face with our phone line (above ground copper cable in the countryside... see the problem?) but a solution would be nice. I'm sure in all the world i'm not the only one with screw wiring on the telco's end.


One thought regarding the many mods, your install 'program' might want to give a list while you wait of websites to check to learn about the various games so people know what kinds of games to look at playing, and give them something to do while they are bored waiting.

And allot of the descriptions the creators of these mods give sometimes makes you stop and stare in wonder :p

Kernal panic was one of the games i tried getting to work and looked quite interesting, sadly same problem, MinSysReq.


Anyway regarding the gizmo that did weird things:
I followed the instruction on the website, and downloaded from memory 3 files, a game (kernel panic) spring itself and a necessary file. I had hoped this would make the job nice and quick, preventing the fun i have with half downloaded stuff on a regular basis.

When it finally got those things done i tried installing spring...
twice when it was downloading additional files i had a freeze in my connection (potentially a line static problem) resulting in the termination of the install...
The third time managed, i'm guessing the files it had already downloaded cut down on the 'install' time, reducing it's dependency on your downloads.

as you can imagine it was almost taking me to my last straw (i think i'd have cut it at 5)... it was getting annoying after that many attempts. Even more fun the 'updating' software proceeded to continue after it appeared the download was actually complete! so more waiting for things to try to download (as far as i can tell though, the update was successful first time, I had to get lucky somehow). A 'downloader' program could have downloaded all the necessary files (getting around the pauses by whatever means you fancy), lined them up together and installed them in one fell swoop. I don't mind a long period spent installing a volume of files, i was more concerned by the number it had to acquire from the internet, and given it took 4 tries over 3 days (well 3 on the first and 1 on the third ;)) to get spring to download in one piece it just seemed to me there had to be a better way.

Mind you a downloader program would have to be built very carefully to prevent Trojan material being able to use it as an entry path, but you guys managed to make this game, a little loophole closing can't be THAT hard for you ;).
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lurker
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Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by lurker »

Did you choose the optional tasclient and default-off in the installer? If not I don't think it should have been downloading anything, but it might be set to.

CA has a simple tutorial in it.

What about your system requirements? I played on a P4 and it worked, and you can see the topic a short while ago about fixing spring's performance on abysmal graphics cards.
Fotiadis_110
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Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 02:50

Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

The problem in question is an error thrown up specifically related to poor graphics and or lack of ram, my ram is decent, so i'd guess the graphics card is just a little too old.

at least thats what google told me, and given i uninstalled the game when i learned i couldn't make it run on this machine....

Additionally i didn't change any tickboxes, i figured i'd let the default do it's thing and see what i could do next.
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lurker
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Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by lurker »

Then it shouldn't be downloading anything. :?

Strange. What's the card? Are your google searches in your browser history? Spring is able to run on a lot of poor computers, the error might be fixable.
Fotiadis_110
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Joined: 06 Jun 2009, 02:50

Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by Fotiadis_110 »

The problem is, it did ;)

I don't recall what it was trying to download i could go and try to install it again but the temp files might complicate that idea.

where is the IRC for around here, i can't find a link so i can get my MIRC to link, and this might be easier if we chat in person.

I suppose what the biggest problem is: is 'what card?' is just the same answer i would have to give you to that question. and given i'm thinking of upgrading computer in the nest 6-18 months it would be insane to spend a few hundred for an old backward graphics card when i'm planning on upgrading to something allot newer in a short period.

Patience is a virtue but it doesn't stop me wanting to mess around on low settings NOW :p.

As for browser history, it ain't here, and if i recall there were 2 suggested solutions and no workarounds.
The solutions were: download the proper graphics card software... or buy a better graphics card ;).


NOTE:
actually i just found Test spring hiding in it's old folder, the uninstall apparently didn't work as i thought it would...
Needed Extension GL_ARB_texture_env_combine not found
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lurker
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Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by lurker »

You found something that suggested more ram for that?

http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

quakenet.org #sy
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lurker
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Re: The economics of Spring mod users

Post by lurker »

False alarm on the downloading, that was the 0.78 installer.
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