Sovereignty of Units, or when Dgunning allies is acceptable.

[LordMatt]

Proof of Noob

Not surprising that this story came from the most vociferous person on the wrong side of the debate.

[manored]

Newbies should not play team games!

1v1s are too vicious and will scare them off, and FFA teaches bad porcing habits.

Co-op comp-stomping would be a good way to learn, but n00bs don't know which bot to use.

Best way to learn would be to play a 1(team) vs 1(team) shared-comm game with a mentor, but nobody does that... unless anybody wants to set up an apprenticeship program?

I think that watching would be the best way as springs interface allows specs to see everthing the players thenselfes can... few people have the patience to watch some games before playing tough.

[Sleksa]

Newbies should not play team games!

+1

1v1s are too vicious and will scare them off, and FFA teaches bad porcing habits.

Co-op comp-stomping would be a good way to learn, but n00bs don't know which bot to use.

Best way to learn would be to play a 1(team) vs 1(team) shared-comm game with a mentor, but nobody does that... unless anybody wants to set up an apprenticeship program?

Shared comm game would be a hell with a noob+pro, with the good player hacking the game with 200 apm and the noob just watching what the hell is going on.

Co-op compstomp teaches nothing about player vs player matches.

And what are the "bad porching habits" O,o

The best way is to play 1v1s and watch replays. QQ'ing about "vicious" 1v1's is the most retarded thing i've heard. Not everyone playing 1v1's is from WarC or PRO ~~

[Pxtl]

The best way is to play 1v1s and watch replays. QQ'ing about "vicious" 1v1's is the most retarded thing i've heard. Not everyone playing 1v1's is from WarC or PRO ~~

I agree that's the best way to learn... but also the least fun. Do you want to get new players? Or scare them off? I mean a n00b would spend the first three 1v1 games getting pwned at jeffy-stage. The next game pwned at flash-stage. Yes, he'd work his way up to getting a decent L1 game, but by then he's probably sick of being a bitch and might just go elsewhere.

And yes, most FFAs are much porkier than 2-faction games, since in FFA you have to defend more potential fronts and worry about what a third-party will do to you while you're occupied on the offensive. That will teach the player to make more defense than is appropriate in a normal team/1v1 game. Hence, bad porcing habits.

And don't you think it's a little inconsistent to say that apprenticeship would be bad because the n00b would mostly be watching, trying to keep up with insane APM, while speccing is good?

[smoth]

And what are the "bad porching habits" O,o

oh man... gotta avoid the obvious joke involving racial stereotypes.

[Acidd_UK]

The scenario lurker keeps mentioning is where I used an aircon, at least 20-30 minutes into the game built a geo across the map near a teammate. That teammate then reclaimed it to build a behemoth. We had pretty much lost by then anyway (it never finished).

ElCap has bacially explained what happened, but I am so pissed off by CarRepairer trying to use this games as an example of why he's right, I feel I should speak out.

FUCK YOU CARREPAIRER.

That entire game (the map was Tabula v2 for those that didn't guess), you were our air player, and IIRC 3 times my clanmates front lines were raped by gunships while your fighter swarm wanked off over your top corner porcobase. Repeated calls to send fighters were met with nothing. Then you cap the geo in the middle of my side of the map, where you have sent no military help all game, and expect me to leave it there? I feel i was in my rights to dgun it rather than spend time reclaiming it, but no, I put a point next to it 'making behe' and reclaim it, and start a behe. The next thing I know, you have conplanes reclaiming the behe nano structure, all the while the middle is falling, all the while your fighters circle jerking on your base.

Ok, rant over, my on-topic view is that player freedom should be encouraged, and rather than try to code many complex (and frankly unworkable) rules, the kick/ban system should just be made easier. If more than 50% of your own team want you kicked, then you should be. Simple as that. This should be tied back to something in the lobby, that both performs anti smurf (I know dynamic IP makes this harder, but we can make a start) and player tracking, so if you kicked some guy from a game, it shows up to you in the lobby next time he joins a battle room that you're in. The players 'greifer-rating' would be entirely private to you, and so it's up to you and you alone to play with him again, or otherwise.

P.S. I wouldn't have made this personal if CR wasn't using that game as justification for trying to turn Spring into Carebear Rainbowland.

QFT and LOL in equal measures. Spring is a deep RTS. I hope it stays that way.

[CarRepairer]

Come on guys, is is necessary to swear? Too much drama.

Winning the game is not the one prerequisite for having fun.
Losing the game does not mean it's "ruined" (boohoo)

You disagree? Fine then. Disrespect your opponents by cheating or hacking. Disrespect your teammates by attacking/stealing from them. Do whatever you must to get that win. Rage quit when you're mad. Grief everyone in chats and boards. It's not a multiplayer game to get together with others and have fun, it's a single player game where every other player is an obstacle to you, enemies and teammates alike. You'll never meet these people, do what you want.

I'm done.

[Tribulexrenamed]

CA rox

[El Capitano]

Come on guys, is is necessary to swear? Too much drama.

I highly recommend you check out Hello Kitty Online if you can't handle a few naughty words.

Winning the game is not the one prerequisite for having fun.
Losing the game does not mean it's "ruined" (boohoo)

That's an excellent strawman you have there.

You disagree? Fine then. Disrespect your opponents by cheating or hacking.

Care to show anybody in this thread who's used hacking or cheating as a means to win a game?

Disrespect your teammates by attacking/stealing from them.

You mean like how you stole that geospot that everybody else bar you fought hard to secure.

Do whatever you must to get that win. Rage quit when you're mad. Grief everyone in chats and boards. It's not a multiplayer game to get together with others and have fun, it's a single player game where every other player is an obstacle to you, enemies and teammates alike. You'll never meet these people, do what you want.

Once again, your strawman is excellent. You are aware that in that game, everyone on our team agreed with replacing that Geo with a Behemoth, right? We were playing as a team, you were playing as a grade-A knob. If you don't want to make sacrifices for the sake of the team, if you don't want the obligation of helping your allies out when they need it, if you don't want the responsibility of coordinating with your allies, then play a 1v1 or FFA and fuck right off out of team games.

I'm done.

Yes, yes you are. So are your arguments.

[[TS]Lollocide]

Its not winning the game, its having a balanced game where everyone is putting their best into it.

Had some epic battles where everyone was fighting and, even though we lost, it was still satisfying.

[Raxxman]

Come on guys, is is necessary to swear? Too much drama.

Winning the game is not the one prerequisite for having fun.
Losing the game does not mean it's "ruined" (boohoo)

Okay, but what does ruin a game? generally speaking it's a lack of teamwork, feeling like you've played a good game only to get creamed because of lack of support from people on your side. Sure loosing a game to some epic strat that snatched victory from the jaws of defeat is fun, however take a game I played a few days ago on DSD. I played the lower front position, went forward, traded comms as is usual in that situation, the backplayers fly air units over and reclaim all the metal, I'm not too fussed because I'm busy trying to crank out units to keep the line held, and don't have a con unit nearby. We push the top of the basin and take out another comm. Again, air takes the salvage. we boot another comm and push them out of the basin, wherein we encounter a teching backplayers t2 porc stopping our t1 assault dead. Okay, so far the battles going well, our back player has taken nearly 10,000 in metal from salvaging alone, surely by this point he'll have the tech level and ability to roll the game. Only he still hasn't actually built a combat unit. Request for a T2 con unit to start teching my eco goes on def ears. T2 tanks start rolling towards me from 2 players, bertha artillery starts pounding my lines and t2 air starts hammering my units. My t1 line crumbles, unable to hold and tech I start to get hammered. Still my backline continue to eco and not crank out units. By this point the game's ruined for me. I know the outcome. We've lost. All I can do now is self D or play on till the inevitable endgame strat finishes us off. Point is, that game was there for the taking, our back guys had more opportunity to win, yet they never switched onto the battle, never saw a chance to win, just continued to plod away, depriving me of metal and giving no support.

So you see, playing out of a team does ruin the game for others, taking a geospot for yourself when you're nowhere near it, and unwilling to defend the area isn't acceptable unless you're about ready to unload the most almighty game winning strike, you're expecting your allies to assist you, yet are depriving them of resources and contributing little to the team defense. Team games are just that, games played by a team. A group of highly skilled individuals will loose a 5v5 vs a group of players who actually play together.

If you don't see this point, then play FFA's.

You disagree?

Clearly...

Fine then. Disrespect your opponents by cheating or hacking.

Where did that come from? That's like saying disrespect your opponents by sleeping with their mum. Sure it is disrespecting them, but it's a bit off topic.

Disrespect your teammates by attacking/stealing from them.

griefing and tactical decisions are two separate issues. I don't mind a player reclaiming my dead comm while I hold the frontline, This allows them to get into the battle faster and roll the opposition. Similarly if I've been battered, it makes sense for them to take mex spots if they're on a good push as I wont be in a situation to assist for a long while and the metal is more beneficial to the team effort than trying to prop up a dead corpse.

Do whatever you must to get that win.

Team game, team effort. Sometimes you're the meatshield that basically just gets battered for the whole game, giving your backguys the time to tech and then pile forward and win. as long as you contribute to the team, like say throwing a comm into a wave of stumpies to protect an allies back base is just good teamwork.

Rage quit when you're mad.

Yeah....

Grief everyone in chats and boards.

welcome to da intanets!

It's not a multiplayer game to get together with others and have fun,

If that's your impression of how Accid and El Cap play then... well you're wrong, end of.

it's a single player game where every other player is an obstacle to you, enemies and teammates alike. You'll never meet these people, do what you want.

Well... Boo to you.

I'm done.

Quite, but you've done what exactly?

[KDR_11k]

Newbies should not play team games!

1v1s are too vicious and will scare them off

The problem is just that they don't have other newbies to 1v1 against. A 1v1 is not vicious if both players are new, only if the newbie ends up in a 1v1 against an expert.

[Acidd_UK]

...as long as you contribute to the team, like say throwing a comm into a wave of stumpies to protect an allies back base is just good teamwork.

Lol nice example you bloody martyr! What do you want, a medal

I MAEK BUZZSAW

[Scratch]

Just thought of a way to get rid of smurfs, make it mandatory that every new account must spend at least 10 hours speccing before being able to play.

OFC since people want to be so nice to noobs the feature won't be implemented.

IDK, because when noobs join teamgames their gameplay life doesn't even reach 50 hrs before they quit(for good) from losing too much. So let them keep doing it and the current influx of players will continue to come and completely go.

Either that or make it permissible for them to play 1 vs 1's only

I bet if the TASclient was modified, some people would wine and cry about it but it would actually seriously improve our player base.

because the damn noobs would actually watch and see how battle is done before f'ing it up themselves at their teams expense, asking questions in #main and stuff.

ps. it wouldn't really get rid of hardcore smurfs though. But who even does that anymore.

[KDR_11k]

You know, you can easily see if a player has played 5 hours by looking at their rank, just exclude one-stripes from your team games.

Imagine if it were you who just got this new game off the internet and was eager to play it but after the extensive work required to make Spring work realized you could only watch until you've got ten freaking hours on your account? That's several days of passively sitting there, seeing people play a game you don't really know (and IMO speccing is not the be-all-end-all of learning, there's MANY things you miss when you are not controlling units yourself and all you can see is what people do, not why). After at most 1-2 hours they'd get bored and leave.

What WOULD help is a singleplayer mode that teaches people what the units do.

[Day]

People should be willing to put more effort into learning a game.

[Raxxman]

the game has a massively steep learning curve and needs a series of tutorials.

IE frontlining base building. (LLT positioning, build order what units to produce and why)

Rushing a dealing with rushes

Backline base building

When to tech

Mid game strats (Berthas, nukes, t2 bomber spam)

The game is simply to complex to just pickup by yourself, hell 90% of the players I've played with have clocked more hours playing the game and still don't really understand the game.

[Otherside]

CA rox

this person has made the most sense in the whole thread

[KDR_11k]

People should be willing to put more effort into learning a game.

Well, we can't change people and our competitors don't require as much commitment.

[Neddie]

the game has a massively steep learning curve and needs a series of tutorials.

IE frontlining base building. (LLT positioning, build order what units to produce and why)

Rushing a dealing with rushes

Backline base building

When to tech

Mid game strats (Berthas, nukes, t2 bomber spam)

The game is simply to complex to just pickup by yourself, hell 90% of the players I've played with have clocked more hours playing the game and still don't really understand the game.

And that is just some of the simple content packages on the engine!