Grammatically incorrect and annoying topicÔÇ¢ [Mature Content]

[Coresair]

The civilians were in no way collateral damage like you say, hoi.....

The bomb was INTENDED to wipe them out, it was known of, and part of the plan. There is no question this was murder, but that is war....

My great/grandparents and their generation did what they had to do to ensure I live life exactly how I am now. Infact the japanese are probably in a better position then if we ravaged them through a landing/invasion as well... The bomb was a win win situation in the long run, yes people died, but that is war....

[momfreeek]

"that is war.." is dismissive and meaningless.
If thats any sort of reason/explanation/meaning for killing innocents, what is the meaning of "war-crime"?

I don't disagree with anything else you said. Just the dismissive nature. Like war is inevitable.. why accept that?

[KingRaptor]

This whole argument is ridiculous. Demonstrate that the atomic bombings were appreciably more harmful than the alternatives showing your calculations or stop the useless holier-than-thou moral preening.

EDIT: I should clarify: net harm.
Additionally, marks will be deducted for failure to multiply payoff by probability.

[momfreeek]

I don't know of a better alternative. Perhaps there was a way to avoid things getting that far? I hope so.

[smoth]

I don't know of a better alternative. Perhaps there was a way to avoid things getting that far? I hope so.

yeah like not having war... because you know well, human beings are going to stop killing each other and just hold hands and sing.

[momfreeek]

hey, anything's possible

Cool video!

Here's one too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nrk8gZyfog

[smoth]

I really wish it was. Kinda what I liked about 00 is they try and sci-fi magic a way for people to reach an understanding of each other. Most people don't realize it but a lot of the newtype shit in gundam is all about wishing there was a way for people to reach a higher level of understanding and communication where by people will understand each other and no longer war.

[Forboding Angel]

Eurofags are rather irritating with the way that they like to wrap themselves in their own self righteousness. In this case I'm singling out momfreek. War sucks. Anyone who thinks differently IS a Fucking moron. You don't have do be a damn genius to take that as a matter of common sense and it should not be necessary to lace our posts with shit that is obvious.

Clean the sand out of you vagoo and get over it.

User was warned for this post

Hahaha, fail. Why am I not surprised that the others get away with their crap?

[Johannes]

This whole argument is ridiculous. Demonstrate that the atomic bombings were appreciably more harmful than the alternatives showing your calculations or stop the useless holier-than-thou moral preening.

Yeah, because shit cannot be conclusively proven either way it's pointless to try learn anything from history?

And Forb, it might be because your crap smells worst

[momfreeek]

England used to be a load of tribes fighting each other. Conquerors came and settled (the romans, the normans; 1066). The wars of the roses between 2 houses of the same royal family (1455-1485) ended in a united england and wales. On 1 May 1707, the united Kingdom of Great Britain was created by the political union of the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland.

GB has been united since then. Ireland is not entirely peaceful and perhaps its too early to call the peace in europe but things are looking fairly settled.

So.. if a country of warring tribes can transition to millions living in essentially peaceful coexistence (ofc there is still crime and gangs and murder, but thats not 'war' exactly ) why can't a continent or the whole world? Unless there is something in us that craves a military foe.. but I'm sure shouting at each other would suffice (politics).

The internet is an incredible communication tool. There are still language barriers and censorship and dictators cutting off their nations from the web, but then we haven't had it long. And how well did our grandparents communicate with other nations? My grandfather fought in the war, I don't think he ever communicated with Germany, but I (think) I have communicated with Germany this very day. I played a game with people from all sides of the great wars this very day and we had fun together.

[TradeMark]

Eurofags are rather irritating with the way that they like to wrap themselves in their own self righteousness. In this case I'm singling out momfreek. War sucks. Anyone who thinks differently IS a Fucking moron. You don't have do be a damn genius to take that as a matter of common sense and it should not be necessary to lace our posts with shit that is obvious.

Clean the sand out of you vagoo and get over it.

User was warned for this post

Hahaha, fail. Why am I not surprised that the others get away with their crap?

well, i get offended from the word because its only used to describe the people who live in the middle of europe (for example some americans thinks europe is a country and french is the capital of it), and every time europeans are being made fun of, they always show french/german/italians only. as if that was the europe. It makes me mad and happy at the same time; im lucky to not be in those countries, but i hate being stereotypized to the people i am not and who i like as less as you do.

Making such an offensive word to describe europeans as if they were the same, is as bad idea as making an offensive word to describe everyone else except americans. I mean, the variety of people is as wide as that.

[KingRaptor]

This whole argument is ridiculous. Demonstrate that the atomic bombings were appreciably more harmful than the alternatives showing your calculations or stop the useless holier-than-thou moral preening.

Yeah, because shit cannot be conclusively proven either way it's pointless to try learn anything from history?

You got me there. I can't counter because I can't even follow the logical connection between the quotes and your replies.

So.. if a country of warring tribes can transition to millions living in essentially peaceful coexistence (ofc there is still crime and gangs and murder, but thats not 'war' exactly ) why can't a continent or the whole world?

Disclaimer: Non-expert nutshell opinion, do not cite
also off topic

The way I see it, this is due to the ethnocentrism of previous generations persisting (albeit in a weaker state), merely applied to larger groups as a result of increasing community size. Not to mention that, the Renaissance and development of the scientific method notwithstanding, Homo sapiens is still annoyingly irrational.

International politics would seem to approximate an indefinitely iterated game of prisoner's dilemma/chicken, with two caveats:

• People either don't think in terms of maximizing their own payoff at all, or else underestimate the price to themselves if both sides defect. This leads to stuff like

  "What this country needs is a short, victorious war to stem the tide of revolution."
  -V.K. Plehve, Russian Minister of the Interior to General A.N. Kuropatkin, Minister of War, 1903 C.E., on the eve of the Russo-Japanese War

• Positive and negative payoffs often don't go to the same person. A ruler who uses war to expand his own political power doesn't lose anything unless he gets defeated and disposed for instance; it's the commoner who suffers the ill effects.
  Democratic systems diminish this separation, but are in turn subverted by:
• Ideology (religion, nationalism, whatever) and ethnocentrism. The first provides group identity, the other the drive to fight perceived out-group members. Leaders may fight for power, but as a rule (especially in modern times) you need these two to motivate the rank-and-file.
  This one is probably the most deeply ingrained problem; one only hopes we can eventually raise the rationality waterline enough to cure it.

[smoth]

Making such an offensive word to describe europeans as if they were the same, is as bad idea as making an offensive word to describe everyone else except americans. I mean, the variety of people is as wide as that.

What do you expect when much of the thread is "lol americans" it isn't exactly fair to go lol americans and not expect a backlash of some sort. The EU is generally what people mean when they say eurofags... just saying. I don't like the term but when people constantly mock americans and those voices are frequently from the eu, there will be animosity returned.


Momfreak, your point is an overly idealized England. People are very much still just animals who follow the rules constructs of their society more or less. Less being shit like chavs.

[Hoi]

The civilians were in no way collateral damage like you say, hoi.....

The bomb was INTENDED to wipe them out, it was known of, and part of the plan. There is no question this was murder, but that is war....

My great/grandparents and their generation did what they had to do to ensure I live life exactly how I am now. Infact the japanese are probably in a better position then if we ravaged them through a landing/invasion as well... The bomb was a win win situation in the long run, yes people died, but that is war....

I'm not saying that they are collateral damage. I'm saying that it was intended to wipe the civilians out.

Maybe you're confusing me for somebody else?

[KaiserJ]

"that is war.." is dismissive and meaningless.

in a way though, thats exactly how we SHOULD react to the memory of war... in your point momfreeek you talk about how britain used to be warring tribes and is now more peaceful... the only way this was possible in the first place was to set aside the differences of the past and think about what the future is going to be like; otherwise we would still have everyone fighting each-other like the olden days

if people weren't able to forgive and forget, spring would probably not even exist as we know it. even taking just the ww2 alliances into account, my canadianness would prevent me from talking to most of the people on here (americans included, for entering the war late) except for the english

but then again i wouldn't even be able to speak to the english, what with their prior colonial control of my country, or the french, for fighting small battles with the english controlled part of my country

every single person, by either genetics or cultural or national identity -could- be predisposed to hate somebody else for conflicts and pain caused at some point in the past; the world is simply too small for this type of memory not to exist

i mean, where does it end? when is it soon enough to say "that is war" and suck it up and be friends with someone? seems to me its never soon enough :/

(europe hasn't really settled IMO, the wars are still being fought financially, electronically, or on the football pitch)

[momfreeek]

Once the subject has been brought up, a dismissive attitude (yeah, shit happens, suck it up) is not going to make it go away, but it is offensive to those who do feel the event was important. Even if the importance is just to make sure it never happens again.

(europe hasn't really settled IMO, the wars are still being fought financially, electronically, or on the football pitch)

yes. and politics :) If this is the new war, then good.

[SinbadEV]

Once the subject has been brought up, a dismissive attitude (yeah, shit happens, suck it up) is not going to make it go away, but it is offensive to those who do feel the event was important. Even if the importance is just to make sure it never happens again.

(europe hasn't really settled IMO, the wars are still being fought financially, electronically, or on the football pitch)

yes. and politics :) If this is the new war, then good.

I'm all for resolving conflict by playing video games but you KNOW that the loser is just going to resort to violence afterwards.

[KaiserJ]

i didn't mean games, i meant things like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_cyber ... on_Estonia

i kinda feel like the people who would have been the napoleons and the hitlers these days go into finance instead of politics

[Cheesecan]

[rant]
Are the Americans in this thread forgetting they are descended from euro trash too? Do you really think that your country is still so far above the rest of the world? Your living standard compared to Europe is declining every year now! Depending on how you count of course..

The founding fathers you always praise so much were Englishmen and you have had several waves of euro trash come to your country after that including Italians, Irish, Swedes, Spaniards and more so most of you are not very far removed from the European gene pool at all.>_>

Up until WW1 and the sacking of Europe that ensued, you guys were the ones chasing Europe's skirts. The US is a superpower but compared to the British, French, Roman and other European empires your power is incredibly diluted, you can barely fight a non-power(terrorists) without ruining your economy and losing the support of your citizen's. Your country is full of pacifists, liberals and democrats who directly or indirectly undermine your world power.

Just look at Obama and his indecisiveness right now. France and UK are saying let's go and f*** Gaddafi up what are you waiting for ? You're much more dependent on Arab league oil than they are that's why. Which is ironic considering that Obama has cancelled off-shore drilling..oh wait! Your country is just as inter-dependent as all the rest. Obama wouldn't even have the balls to pull off a coalition of the willing -> Every time you get a new leader he is less effective than the last(Bill Clinton being a modern exception as he was one of the worst presidents in your history).

Also here's a prediction from your's truly. Japan will sell US state bonds, and ofc you cannot sell to a higher price in such a situation, which will devalue the dollar which in turn will lead to a dramatic increase in oil prices soon. This will be good for your economy as your export can then grow, but unfortunately your export is heavily dependent on oil which means +- 0(at best). Certain industries will go down and others will survive.
[/rant]

[smoth]

And the euro guys who rage at america forget we are their cousins.. well except me, I am from the caribean love, dealwithit.jpg.

Just look at Obama and his indecisiveness right now. France and UK are saying let's go and f*** Gaddafi up what are you waiting for ?

backlash from bush unfortunately. Everyone rages at the us for interfering, so the people voted for someone who would just sit on his hands because erryone calls us murderers etc.