XTA

[pintle]

1 word: KnoX

[The_Big_Boss]

I just wanted to point out there are 3 things i look at when you guys post.

Logos: Argument by logic.-Specifically I check to see if an argument doesn't contradict itself.

Pathos: Argument by emotion.

Ethos: Argument by character.- Looking Trust Worthy.

I try limit it to logic, but sometimes i use emotion, specifically to catch your attention. I try very hard to not use Character.

So when I'm called trolling I see it this way:

Argument by Logic:
It doesn't point out a contradiction in my argument.

Argument by emotion:
it may be used to rally others to post to censor me(not effecting my argument again) or put me into a guilt trip(Does that really work frequently on the forums?).

Argument by Character:
If succeeding, it ruins my character and I will most definitely be considered untrustworthy and should be ignored, banned, or castrated depending on the culture. Again, the argument is untouched and self righteously laughed at and swept into the dumpster.

Noraus, I defend you because you try to apply xta balance to logical tests like we did in Knox. I don't like your emotional outbursts to justify common sense and I dont like it that u won't hear IK out just because of how u view his character, contradicting or not, i think you should still address his argument until it becomes ridiculously not worth it. If you feel that way let him argue it. But with that said, I cant do anything about that.

You wanted to be neutral, try not to interfere with the arguments or appear biased. I lawl because that failed. Your good intentions didn't meet up practically. Its very ironic. Don't repeat your broken silence system.

1 word: KnoX

What are you responding to Pintle?

[Peet]

I asked nor to do a check in the message boards for sources. But from what i've seen its a little ambiguous atm. I really dont want the 'take my word for it' approach. So something that speaks of the time line will be posted when nor has his stuff.

But you feel you can speak in a 100% factual manner about how xta has been governed without knowing any specifics about its past?

[babbles]

I know only 3 who are against changeing XTA and at least RoX and CoW clans are in favour.

CoW is still alive? o_O

Oh and, I like morphing and it'd if it could be fixed with the Core level 2 morph / 89% bugs.

and just so you know I have no idea about XTA history as I joined in 8.1. >_>

[pintle]

Peet was asking for your version of the history of XTA dev, i was trying to refresh your memory.

AFAIK it went SJ->Noize->Knox->Noruas.

Your description of the forms of argument presumes we have diametrically opposed views, abstract rational constructs which we are attempting to prove or disprove to each other repsectively, this is not the case.

There's no self righteousness in my laughter at your forum dialogue, i know i am aggressive and ambiguous and sarcastic in a medium (internets) and environment (talkin to amerikunz) that does not suit it, and never pretend not to be so. The objection stems entirely from your seeking of a confrontation in which to exercise your debating skills. The forum is entirely innapropriate to what you seem to be trying to communicate. Im talking about stuff as simple as the AK being op, which if you look at the poll I set up in a craven, blatant attempt to "enforce conformity" with my own warped and evil perspective, you would see reasoned and polite debate taking place exactly to that end.

To clarify, that is the one thing i asked for in this whole shitstorm of internet emo: open developement and balance discussion, with changes discussed prior to implementation, particularly with regard to the addition of new units.

[The_Big_Boss]

But you feel you can speak in a 100% factual manner about how xta has been governed without knowing any specifics about its past?

Or I held back to get some good quotes from the forum to support what I know. Which I said I was doing with nor. But thanks for the nice vote of confidence peet.

This is something long ago, our minds hazy, and I dont think we sat there thinking we were going to need to memorize this for 3 years later. So I thought that maybe I should bring up some reminders. I think thats fair.

[The_Big_Boss]

Your description of the forms of argument presumes we have diametrically opposed views, abstract rational constructs which we are attempting to prove or disprove to each other repsectively, this is not the case.

We are not. You rely heavily on attacking character, you use emotional means to get your point across, you simplify situations to get people on your side, you contradict yourself, and you constantly believe there is an agenda somewhere in movement. When you say 'i know i am aggressive and ambiguous and sarcastic in a medium (internets)' you must all the same you realize that all I have from you is your texts. You must also realize that everything above, whether you do it or not, does not belong into balance discussion. When I am 'confrontal' as you put it, it means I am objecting to your means to reach the end. It is not off topic, it is not trolling, and it is not the flexing of my forum experience. But what I am about to do is a little flexing.

I have copied most of your post you have made in this thread. I picked these because I believe they qualify as one of my above statements. Now it may carry weight for some people, and thats fine, but for me, I find useless. I have bolded every remark of parts I find distasteful. If you push aside most of these bold-ed phrases ill find it unprofitable to continue conversation with you. I expect there will be some clarification on your part, and I have no problem with that. And I will explain why if u asked why.

pintle

At work atm will set it up this evening.

Need some moderators (lol) I think you will all agree I am not an ideal candidate ^^

edit: thanks af! :D

pintle

@ Noruas: with you or against you? How about just want a well balanced playable mod with an open developement environment, personal politics aside?

pintle
Big Boss you talk a lot of shit. You have made numerous personal attacks on me which I have ignored out of goodwill and the desire not to fracture the community any more than you or Noruas already have. But Im only human and I'm starting to take this personally.

I set up a new forum without discussion. Big deal.

Now how the hell can opening an arena for public debate be a more fiendish act than closing one without any prior warning? Oh wait I'm not your brother so of course I'm the villain in this scenario.

It not like Noruas takes a blind bit of notice as to what is discussed on the forums anyway, or that he airs his ideas for new units before putting them into the game.

Troll me all you like, here, or in the lobby on your smurfs, I really don't care. Just don't drag XTA into your campaign of hatred against me.

All I want is an open development model, full public changelogs, and an end to the random unit addition without any discussion.

I have more gripes/issues about XTA that would be way better served by having their own thread, but that would be a retarded idea and much harder for BB to troll all of them right?

Pintle
OK sorry Noruas, I obviously misunderstood what happened.

BB I stand by what I said. It is ridiculous that you announce that I would go to the trouble of setting up a forum in order to use it to force conformity amongst people.

Can we stop BAAAAAWing and get back to mod dev maybe?

Pintle

Smoth wrote:
Actually spring first had some weird musket war thing. I don't buy the competition for players crap, I think currently the player competition is lite. Maybe something between BA/SA/CA



Actually XTA predates spring as it was an OTA mod. A quick look here would tell you that much.

If your going to troll, at least do it right.

Pintle
K so you just intentionally derailed the thread while adding nothing constructive.

Pintle
So can we presume that you have fuck-all intention of responding to the players about their concerns?

A few people have suggested to me in private that they could undertake developement of XTA, remove the broken crap you added and trim the FX so frame rates remain playable. I suggested hold up a and see how you responded either here or on the XTA boards...

Pintle
Stop using "you people" its a retarded term. Address individual points people have raised as opposed to focusing purely on "you made me do it". Nobody asked for 5 fps games, don't pretend any of us did.

Pintle
Play a 4v4 or bigger on a decent rig an you will lag to hell when a decent number of the particle fx kick off. Make a few ravens, build a vulcan, set off a few crawling bombs... try actually playing the mod a bit before contributing further to the discussion.

Pintle
I greatly appreciate the work on fps (I myself suffer much more from connection than cpu issues). The one thing that really has upset me is the fact that up until now you have not adressed any of this, but have instead made joke posts etc.

I didn't set out to cause any personal confrontation (As i made clear to you a couple of times) but it happened anyway, which is a shame. I don't think betrayal is the right word, because there was never any agreement you had to honour or anything like that, you work on the mod in your free time for fun, and of course I (and I would hope the others) appreciate this greatly.

What i think really triggered a lot of the resentment amongst people was the sudden addition of new units, after literally years of developement without the addition of new units, suddenly there have been large changes to the game dynamic, with very very little public consultation or room for feedback.

Obivously had you made XTA from scratch, I would be way out of line in saying this, but the fact is that it was a game before you started developing it, and the radical changes seem like a very sudden move, and could have been handled with more tact.

Wall of text blah blah cant be bothered to proof read

Pintle
Smoth, this debate raged for a while on the previous xta forums which have been closed (Due to a lack of moderation) and continue a little on the current xta boards, the vast majority of the people i am "representing" dont use these forums.

Pintle
Smoth, you didn't read the old XTA forums, I can email you the sql dump if you really want. Suffice to say I do not have to justify my statements to an audience of people who don't play XTA.

Pintle

Mhm i never denied that it was fixable, in fact i went so far as to try and establish how we could go about doing such a thing before the thread was attacked by 300/mortal kombat image macros...[/quote]

Pintle
indeed, i was rather irritated myself after weeks of trying to gain any response at all :)

Pintle
The_Big_Boss wrote:
Not the community tho, since democracy is just about consent.


LOL

If indeed you do accept that dev should be a democratic proccess, there is nothing more to discuss really.

Pintle

The_Big_Boss wrote:
the need for consent for xta to be a good mod?


I dont remember SJ saying that. I remeber about 10 games with SJ in the 2.5 years I've been playing XTA.

I do remeber over 1000 hours of playing XTA. Find me someone with more, then patronise me with "lul i wuz heer first".

Pintle:
K Boss if you want to say stuff like that.


XTA IS NOT NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN YOUR OR NORUAS MOD. YOU DID NOT MAKE IT YOU DO NOT DESERVE CREATIVE CONTROL OVER IT.[/quote]

Pintle:

I dont aim to make personal attacks at you _At_all_ Noruas.

You may have asked a certain clique of players about some of the changes, but the majority of the people I play with regularly feel as though they are being completely ignored.

You have to accept that your current balancing and testing model failed, you released a version where you could dgun a commander and live, then released another version with the same bug (or "feature" if you think that kinda thing adds depth).

As i stated earlier in the thread, had you made xta from the ground up, i would accept such moronic posts as, to paraphrase "lol not a democracy".

@Machio: If there is a fork, I am vehement it should be the version full of loltastic unintuitive units, and rps counters (minebots), spammy nanotowers, broken com morphing, etc etc, as this is a radical break from what XTA has been for literally years. The name "XTA" should be reserved for a mod that plays like XTA. This whole debacle started when the regular players (the ones who didnt leave) took a stand and said "wtf have you done to our mod?".

Pintle:
Peet was asking for your version of the history of XTA dev, i was trying to refresh your memory.

AFAIK it went SJ->Noize->Knox->Noruas.

Your description of the forms of argument presumes we have diametrically opposed views, abstract rational constructs which we are attempting to prove or disprove to each other repsectively, this is not the case.

There's no self righteousness in my laughter at your forum dialogue, i know i am aggressive and ambiguous and sarcastic in a medium (internets) and environment (talkin to amerikunz) that does not suit it, and never pretend not to be so. The objection stems entirely from your seeking of a confrontation in which to exercise your debating skills. The forum is entirely innapropriate to what you seem to be trying to communicate. Im talking about stuff as simple as the AK being op, which if you look at the poll I set up in a craven, blatant attempt to "enforce conformity" with my own warped and evil perspective, you would see reasoned and polite debate taking place exactly to that end.

To clarify, that is the one thing i asked for in this whole shitstorm of internet emo: open developement and balance discussion, with changes discussed prior to implementation, particularly with regard to the addition of new units.

Im talking about stuff as simple as the AK being op, which if you look at the poll I set up in a raven, blatant attempt to "enforce conformity" with my own warped and evil perspective, you would see reasoned and polite debate taking place exactly to that end.

Right, if i stop posting my right to post, you'll start posting fair, reasoned, polite debate. Because this is my fault for u going all caps. I don't think so.

[smoth]

- - - - --- -------------DRAMA

[Machiosabre]

- - - - --- -------------DRAMA

this is like Emmanuel complaining about bad grammar

[smoth]

?

[Machiosabre]

are you saying you never make drama?

[pintle]

I have completely given up trying to be polite to you, your last post bears nothing productive and is a pure and simple attack on me.

Go here and talk about balance if you like, I'll even refrain from enforcing the "don't be a dick" rule for you.

Big difference between me and you: I flame/insult you while making actual positive contributions, you just attack people to exercise your ego.

[smoth]

are you saying you never make >4 pages in one post worth of drama?

yes I am saying I do not do that

[Machiosabre]

yeah but he cheated, it was mostly quotes.

I once copy pasted a few pages worth and posted, but they deleted it

[smoth]

yeah, well to me, that is TOO much drama.

[Machiosabre]

I dare you to write a bigger post the next time you get angry for a really good reason?

[smoth]

Angry for no reason.

?

[bashar]

If you push aside most of these bold-ed phrases ill find it unprofitable to continue conversation with you

Seems pintle push aside all that drama so obviously you now could stop the conversation.

[The_Big_Boss]

I have completely given up trying to be polite to you, your last post bears nothing productive and is a pure and simple attack on me.

Or im just saying you do not provide 'abstract rational constructs' as you claim. Because you

flame/insult while making actual positive contributions

while you are

aggressive and ambiguous and sarcastic

during which you promised not to set

out to cause any personal confrontation

but went out anyway and said

Big Boss you talk a lot of shit.

or

XTA IS NOT NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN YOUR OR NORUAS MOD

or

If your going to troll, at least do it right

or

wtf have you done to our mod?

.

I believe you are right, because this

whole shitstorm of internet emo

brings me to conclusion there

is nothing more to discuss really

And when you say

I'll even refrain from enforcing the "don't be a dick" rule for you

,
I will remember all the other broken things you said.

-'the drama, the irony, what will happen next?'

[bashar]

Poor BigBoss...