Supreme Annihilation V1.0

[Tired]

Sniper - "Cannot." Please pay attention to the context of a statement before commenting on it so that you can seem less dumb.

NOiZE - Knew about it. Sucks. Thanks for the thought, though. =)

Krog - Your factory system is exchangeable with nano turrets or build assists save for two significant differences other than those you've mentioned: no build assists force build power to be dedicated to spam, which removes a lot of maneuver from play - no Just In Time resource delivery - and factories have build power comparable to that of two nanos, yet require more resources to run (each factory having two emitnano sprays and also a larger footprint). The former factor is very significant regarding a certain style of play, but I agree when you say it's a matter of preference.

[[Krogoth86]]

no build assists force build power to be dedicated to spam

Hmmm - I don't get what you want to say with that...

yet require more resources to run (each factory having two emitnano sprays and also a larger footprint)

You mean they eat up more performance with that? Well that's in fact not the case. Each building spawns just one "nano spray" and so even if you have 2, 4 or 8 parts of your model emitting nanos the particle amount remains the same as all that happens is a switiching through the emitters i.e. first particle ist spawned at nano part 1, second particle is spawned at nano part 2 and so on. The lab particles also have a way shorter lifetime as they only travel a very short distance while with nano towers they travel multiple times the distance and so you can run several labs with the particle count of just one nano tower placed in an average distance from what it shall assist...

Well as we're now talking about the lab system I think a personal reason why I did it this way was the fact I found building labs kinda stupid the way it was. I mean there isn't really a single reason to have labs for unit Construction - they're huge, static and their buildtime is a pity. So it would make way more sense to actually have a mobile Construction Unit (and some units actually can be built by workers in many mods) for your units as you're going to need assistance anyway and the labs on their own are worth nothing and easy targets. So I went ahead and made the labs more "worthy". They build fast on their own and because of an unbelievable star-trek-sci-fi-fact they use a different sort of nanos for building and so cannot be assisted by general workers...

[Tired]

Most labs have two different nano emits. Additionally, a single nano tower deforms the map less. Map deformation = lag.

If you have 10 nanos, 1 lab, and 1 Advanced Builder, you can make: units, LRPCs, Nukes, Resources, Monkeylords (if your mod were cool), etc., and reclaim any and all of the above along with enemy units to allow you to shift your economy's focus. Drop unit spam completely and tech up in 20 seconds, moho mex inside a minute, and go back to unit spam.

If you have 10 tier 1 labs (assuming the labs can't build assist), then you can make: units. See the difference? No quick changes of economy or strategy; you just spam until the other guy falls over, or you do.

The purpose of labs is to unlock technology. The only ways that they're significantly different from Civilization tech are that they combine a barracks with your research, and you can lose technology by losing the building.

Make sense now?

[[Krogoth86]]

Most labs have two different nano emits. Additionally, a single nano tower deforms the map less. Map deformation = lag.

As I said - multiple emit point do not result in more particles. The particle number a unit spawns is the same for every unit and then gets seperated equally to the emit points...

And since when is map deformation lag? I mean it's not that ground is deformed all the time...

Drop unit spam completely and tech up in 20 seconds, moho mex inside a minute, and go back to unit spam.

If you have 10 tier 1 labs (assuming the labs can't build assist), then you can make: units. See the difference? No quick changes of economy or strategy; you just spam until the other guy falls over, or you do.

Well this assumption is wrong.

You are right - you can't make your nanos turn around and BOOM - you have a giant buildpower on another tech level. Instead you have a fluent system where you have to build up higher tech level buildpower too and so this enforces you to mix T1 and T2 units for good. That's pretty much nonexistent for your lab-model but in MA you have to find out too which T1 / T2 units make up a good combo which is something your model totally lacks (ok you have to combine your T2s with existing T1s but that's not the same). You immediately turn the switch and are at a higher tech level...

Just pumping out T1 labs and spam your enemy dead is fail in MA (unless your enemy makes stupid mistakes). I mean yeah - you can try that but it most certainly will fail. Reasons are for example the special and high effective Anti-Spam towers, more possibilities to build mines as well as the fact that the units' corpses will seriously block your attack force. The most important reason although is the fact that a higher tech level means more value per invested ressources and with a better T2 eco and T2 Turrets that even pwn T1 artillery you may try to spam your enemy to death but once your enemy has reached T2 he will overpower you in no time (especially as T2 is far easier to reach than in BA / SA)...

Concerning nanos building structures - what prevents you from doing that in MA too? Apart from that the structure's buildtime is determined not just by the metal costs but by an easy formula which also doesn't need serious amounts of buildpower for rather simple things and so you don't neccessariely need several nanos to make your constructor build Adv. Solar in a reasonable time. A constructor can build them in a pretty good timeframe on its own. So to say the truth nanos in MA (imo) are most efficent for doing repairs on well for example your defenses. As they don't have to be located next to the respective units like a worker would have to go you can put them in the more or less safe backside of your defense and have them repair everything in range at a pretty good rate...

[Tired]

Map deformation = lag. If you don't believe me, Area Attack any point on any map with 100 tier 2 bombers in a test game and just walk away for 5 minutes. Make no other units.

Don't tell me that my assumptions are wrong and then tell me I'm right. If you still don't understand the point, I don't care. gg

[[Krogoth86]]

Map deformation = lag. If you don't believe me, Area Attack any point on any map with 100 tier 2 bombers in a test game and just walk away for 5 minutes. Make no other units.

Did so without any issues. If you experience performance problems in that scenario put the ground decal value either to 0 or to 1 but don't choose another value because it's broken...

I also had "fun games" ending with cheating in hunderds of coms self-ding leading to a totally messed up topology - no issues at all. With saying map deformations of any kind have strong impacts then how do you explain all the CA games with their extensive wall terraforming working like a charm?

Don't tell me that my assumptions are wrong and then tell me I'm right. If you still don't understand the point, I don't care. gg

I said your assumption of MA being T1 spam is wrong and gave reason - I only said you're right about MA's lab system not being able to just switch your nanos to a higher tech lab so what's the matter?

[Tired]

You don't understand, and I'm done explaining. Bye.

[Gota]

Iv been told by secret sources theres gonna be an update soon ^^.

[Tired]

You've been told wrong. =)

I'm on strike until someone develops a good fbi >> Excel >> fbi batch converter - what's out there now doesn't count.

If there were to be an update, half of it would be adding a mod option that killed most of the lua, to include morphing and other non-TA elements. Might kill some of the screwier aspects of Spring physics, too, just 'cause I wanna see what that'd be like.

Feel free to bugfix the Destroyers on your own if ya like, add in scout weapons, lower repair strength, change whatever other values ya please, and call it SA+.

[Pressure Line]

Map deformation = lag. If you don't believe me, Area Attack any point on any map with 100 tier 2 bombers in a test game and just walk away for 5 minutes. Make no other units.

Don't tell me that my assumptions are wrong and then tell me I'm right. If you still don't understand the point, I don't care. gg

The reason the bombers making hueg crater will lag is because the pathing needs to be redone every time the ground changes. a factory being built wont appreciably maek lag because it happens once. then once its happened the pathfinder already knows about the change in the terrain.

i call a draw. you are right about mass cratering causing lag, krog is right about factories not really being the culprit here.

[Satirik]

http://www.climachine.com/spring/FbiImp ... porter.xls

i dunno why i did that

it imports the fbis into excel, 1 file per line, one param per column (if you have excel 2007 it supports more than 256 columns otherwise don't use it because it will truncate the > 256 params)

and it exports the data with same layout to fbi

[Tired]

Pressure, factories don't "happen once." Building one factory once buys you 5-10 seconds of constant terrain alteration to flatten the area. Building 40 factories once each buys you 200-400 seconds of constant deformation. After the facs are destroyed, the land will slowly recover over the course of the game, which also effects pathing. Average MA 1v1s will have 40 factories pop up. Average 5v5s? So nya. =P

Satirik, screw you hippie bastard; that'd better not work!

[[Krogoth86]]

Building one factory once buys you 5-10 seconds of constant terrain alteration to flatten the area.

Well this is highly map dependant - it doesn't even take one second on some maps...

Building 40 factories once each buys you 200-400 seconds of constant deformation.

So what's the point? It's calculated once and it's done. Otherwise you'd really want to take all that windmills out of your mod...

Still your statement of map deformations leading to lag is wrong. The best example still is CA where you have constructors deforming the terrain for minutes EACH just to get walls and trenches. The number of deformations don't lag the game (as the changes on the terrain are calculated once and that's it) - they only would if they'd happen all at once (what you also can see in CA when those damn blue artillery chickens show up and shoot dozens of those terrain deforming plasma balls - the game lags while they're shooting and is fine again once they're dead)...

Average MA 1v1s will have 40 factories pop up.

I hope you're talking of "can be the number built throughout the entire game" and not "are kept live all the time"...

[Gota]

So does it work?Satirik.

[Tired]

No one was talking to you, Krogoth. You're still a moron. 0o

Haven't tried it yet.^^

[[Krogoth86]]

No one was talking to you, Krogoth. You're still a moron. 0o

Yup - and I'll probably be there when I think you tell something wrong next time...

Haven't tried it yet.^^

Did you try that one by Maelstrom mentioned by Noize? Recently found that in an old directory on my HDD...

[Gota]

New version of SA:

http://spring.jobjol.nl/show_file.php?id=1201 .

[[Krogoth86]]

You still didn't include the fixed textures for floating nanos & shields I even uploaded for you on page 1?

[Tired]

He's probably snubbing you, 'cause you're a moron.

gg Gota.

[[Krogoth86]]

Well it's not that I feel hurt because of it - maybe he also just forgot to write it into the changelog, I just remembered that those textures were fail in V1.0...

Oh and don't start throwing out insults to anyone proving a statement of yours wrong...