Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !! - Page 55

Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!

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1v0ry_k1ng
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Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

chain exploding is not a good way to balance things.
I agree 100% with:
Kbots have two primary advantages: They are more maneuverable, and can go over steeper terrain. Since the change to spring that makes units no longer slow down when given orders, kbots have lost a lot of their advantage on maneuverability. On flatter maps, tanks are just plain better.

I dont think the answer is to change hp/damage/cost. If the acceleration, deceleration and turnrate of tanks was reduced (Esp on lvl1), making them harder to maneuver, it may give kbots back some of their former advantage. It may also help if kbots were made to aim slightly faster. The advantage of the tank would be in its 'charge', once its up to speed, it can penetrate defenses, and outrun units. But in a skirmish situation kbots would be the more mobile ones.
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:shoudlnt flash/gator and indeed most tanks be slower than zippers?
if tanks are faster AND tougher than kbots, whos going to make kbots?
Kbots go on hills and respond better to micro. I hope people aren't listening to those who are suggesting major changes to ground balance. :|
DemO
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Post by DemO »

Kbots require more and better micro to use well against enemy units and structures. Your average player will send rockos in point move orders straight towards an enemy structure or group of tanks and then watch them get ripped apart, and thus complain that kbots are rubbish.

Flash/gator are easy to control, you get a group of them, send them straight past the enemy units and watch as they annihilate each other until one or the other wins. They can be used almost without micro entirely and still have a decent effect (although good micro will improve performance and efficiency of tanks obviously)

If you want to see how kbots can infact be used against tanks and can be used very effectively, go and watch [SmuG]Steven play a game where he uses kbots and you'll see how micro intensive they are... by keeping peewees and rockos at max range and on the high ground you can achieve very successful results even in small numbers against tanks and defenses.

Facing a kbot enemy is always different. Kbot players tend to harass more and mass units rather than send in groups of units to raid particular places, and when they do attack it can be painful to watch as your tanks get eaten up by rockos before they can even get in range, your LLT's barely shoot the enemy and theres no chance of defending with your commander.

Yes, vehicles dominate flat maps with barely any terrain deformations/hills, e.g. comet catcher which is for the most part almost completely flat. Vehicles SHOULD win on those maps.

But then look at Xantheterrav3 - the map doesnt have any hills either but there are recesses in the ground across the middle of the map which force vehicles down set routes where kbots can just walk right over them. Many people start kbots on this map while others start vec, and often with good players you'll see the kbots hold up well and often win against the guy that started vehicles.
manored
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Post by manored »

People I just found one ilogical thing on the mod: The amphibious transport vehicle can load other amphibious vehicles underwater, but he can only unload em on land. And no, he didnt had any not-amphibious units inside him.
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jackalope
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Post by jackalope »

resurrection units are a gimmick and reclaim is pretty much always better than resurrection anyways.
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

I still like Rez, but I agree with Jack, I have had to forsake it to remain competitive, actually.
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Machiosabre
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Post by Machiosabre »

res units are actually really good when you make em cost less and work almost 3 times as fast :lol:
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BigSteve
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Post by BigSteve »

In theory rezzing is more efficient as there's no energy cost when you rez, there is when you reclaim and build a new unit.
But I just cant be bothered with the rez bots tbh, they always get taken out when I use em as most of the corpses are on the front line, its quicker and less hassle to reclaim especially as the rez bots have only a tiny circle you can set them to work in.

@Fox, meh, sorry I thought you were making a separate mod, I didnt realise it was for testing. oops.

Incidentally I like most of the changes, think Ive mentioned the skuttle problem myself at some point.
Last edited by BigSteve on 02 Feb 2007, 23:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Foxomaniac
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Post by Foxomaniac »

Since we're talking about Rez Kbots right now, I present to ye' V2 changelog :

http://froob.iamacup.com/temp/changelog.txt

Ignore stumpy and flash changes, look at everything else =P.

FYI to correct steve : rezzing takes energy but no metal (unless you're rezzing a partially reclaimed corpse), rezz circle can be as large as you want =P.

Rez Kbots are viable now IMO - they're useful, but still fragile.

http://froob.iamacup.com/temp/gfestv2.sdz

^^^
IF you want to test it in reality.

For some reason however, they take 5 energy when rezzing comms - wtf? o.o
Last edited by Foxomaniac on 02 Feb 2007, 23:20, edited 1 time in total.
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BigSteve
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Post by BigSteve »

rez circle... ahhh I was thinking the restore circle... silly me, in my defence my monitor is so small and crap I cant actually see the text in the ctrl panel ^^
rezzing takes e? huh didnt know that, how much? does it depend on the corpse or something?
Last edited by BigSteve on 02 Feb 2007, 23:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Foxomaniac
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Post by Foxomaniac »

Depends on the corpse.

I don't exactly know the equation though.
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt »

Foxomaniac wrote: Ignore stumpy and flash changes, look at everything else =P.
Aside from these, which are a bad idea fox, I don't remember if I mentioned that to you, :P all of the other changes seems reasonable to me.
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Foxomaniac
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Post by Foxomaniac »

You mentioned it a crapload of times, called all my changes phail and also called me phail.

I'm sure I can find many more incidents.

*goes emo

/slit wrist.

What do you people think about further boosting Targeting facility efficiency?

I also noticed floating targeting facility costs the same as old land TF, I'll fix that.

I'm thinking of re-doing the pelican while I'm caring about amphibious units, the question is - in what way should it change or which role the pelican should take?

Edit :
Since there's no way you can specify how efficient the TF is, I simply further lowered costs, they cost 490-ish metal now, slightly less energy and half buildtime.

Floating ones cost slightly more.
Last edited by Foxomaniac on 03 Feb 2007, 00:03, edited 1 time in total.
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt »

Foxomaniac wrote: What do you people think about further boosting Targeting facility efficiency?
Fine with me, not like people build them atm.
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hunterw
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Post by hunterw »

I said nothing about chain explosions, that's ridiculous, I said beforehand that any change should be marginal...let's say a flash that dies does 5% dmg to all flashes touching it, that's pretty damn marginal, just like increasing their turning radius 10%. When you're so close to being perfectly balanced you don't throw in huge sweeping changes.

Resurrection units definitely should get a leg-up. Also, targeting facilities made even better? Fine by me... 8)
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hunterw
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Post by hunterw »

the flashes in the v2 of that mod are nerfed pretty bad, i'm thinking most people will hate those changes.

should use one of mine. i'd say use turning radius, increase it by 10-20%
zecrazyone
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Post by zecrazyone »

i personally think that its a good thing that flashes and gators have been nerfed. flashes and gators were always OP, and the strategy on many maps became 'spam flashes'. if the only strategy is to spam flashes, that destroys many possible battle tactics. since flashes are now weakened, people will use flashes as part of thier army instead of as thier entire army. the use of flashes will change from being a main attack force to being a raiding unit and an attack force's close combat support unit. flashes will still be used commonly, but there will be more diversity in lvl 1 battles.

btw, yes, these changes will probably anger some people who will have to change thier strategy from "spam teh flashes" to building an attack force with multiple unit types, but in my opinion, this change is beneficial.

also, since amphicious units can move underwater at a good speed, they have been greatly improved. thier stats should be slightly nerfed to make up for this
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hunterw
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Post by hunterw »

I just think it was too big of a change, and it's not like it's BA 4.61, it's just that additional script someone posted.

They are OP, yes, but the amount they need to be nerfed is not that much.
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Foxomaniac
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Post by Foxomaniac »

hunterw wrote:the flashes in the v2 of that mod are nerfed pretty bad, i'm thinking most people will hate those changes.

should use one of mine. i'd say use turning radius, increase it by 10-20%
That's a rather major-ish buff, not a nerf o.O.

What REALLY bothers me about flashes is the fact that they have a max speed of 3.75.

Zipper's is 3.71.

If you compare the two units :

Flash : UberRaider with strong weapon and cheap buildtime and cost.
Zipper : Epic failure that does piss poor damage (It was overnerfed in AA), takes longer to build and is twice the cost of a flash.

If you take in the account that gator's speed is only 3....

Core gets the epic shaft.

Flash >>>>> Gator.

In the test games I played with a few, flashes are still efficient, flash/gator spam still works - just not as uber as it is right now.

Alas, I'm afraid people aren't ready to move away from flash flash flash flash flash gameplay yet, if you haven't noticed yet, most games aren't played with a lot of strategic thought.

some d-fens?

What to do :

Bring artillery?
HELL NO!

Bumrush it with a horde of flash?
HELL YES!

If you bring artillery, unless your artillery is protected by your own d-fens and flash force, all your artillery will do is cause his flashs to attack NOW and kill them.

Oh and to rub more salt into an open wound :

Tired suggests that L1's DPS/Health should be nerfed in general and comm's HP should return to 6000 as in old versions of AA!

/end rant.

I'm not going to discuss flashes/stumpies any further - the final say is up to noize/day.

Latest additions to mutator code :

1. Fixed DT hitspheres (Thanks Argh!, on the subject of thanking - Thanks smoth for the waterboost script and Nemo for helping me with a few scripting headaches).
2. Fixed a rather nasty exploit regarding Airpads and transports which prevents the game from ever ending.

Thoughts :

1. No one uses air repair pads, they're efficient but the cost and the buildtime are too much in my opinion, I'm going to try halving Metal cost and reducing BT.
2. Pelicans, pelicans, pelicans.... a very useless amphibious unit for arm - requires a re-do, but in what way should it be modified?
3. Someone (I forgot) said januses could use a slight buff - I think januses are fine personally, what do you people say?
Saktoth
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Post by Saktoth »

also, since amphicious units can move underwater at a good speed, they have been greatly improved. thier stats should be slightly nerfed to make up for this
If amphibs were OP, people would use them on non-water maps. They are still worse than their land-only equivs, which is all they need to be. Except the Croc, which is liquid pwn (But nobody has discovered this yet so its OK). Nerf them once people actually start using and exploiting them, rather than a preemptive nerf.

Oh, also- Amphib complex should probably have the kbots- Cor the Gimp arm the Pelican.

Really underused/underpowered units

Non-air transports
, a real shame. What to do with them? Speed increase, to keep up with the air transports? Maybe weapons, on some? Stealth? Cloak? Shield? Repair? Combat auto-repair? Some other support role it can play?

Energy and metal storage, esp adv and underwater. Useful if you lose your com, useful if you are reclaiming a lot of metal, useful if you have a wind map with large wind variance and an MM economy- but you only ever need one and never need an advanced one. Reducing the storage on resource structures (esp tech2) might make them used more, but that might mess up the resource scheme.

Air Repair Pads. The real problem with these is not cost. Planes only return if they are on a tiny sliver of life, which means they rarely make it home (They usually turn around, and take 1 more missile in the keister. They also return even if they have other orders, and dont return if they are on, say 30% life and just sitting idle. Thus air repair pads are just a nuisance. No idea how to fix this one. :( Is there a variable that controls at what HP planes return? Perhaps something like the fuel scripts used in EE, but with the trigger being a number of HP- if thats possible.

Decoy Fusions. I guess the fact they arent used just allows someone to be all the more surprising when they are used.

Metal Generators. Moho Metal Makers and a fusion (Or advanced solars, which are only 7% less effecient than a fusion, who knew?) are about 60% more effecient on a cost analysis. However, metal generators are cheaper (So you get rewards faster). A lot of the cost of the MG is its E , but it takes no E to run- so in the long term, they might be better? Yet nobody builds them. Do you think this is just because people dont realise?

Liche Atomic Bomber. This DOES get built sometimes, but i think only because it 'sounds cool' (Or because someone has M/E to burn). It costs more than 10x as much as a regular strategic bomber, 4x the buildtime, only has 2x the HP. On average, the pheonix bomber does around 1700 damage to buildings. The 5625 damage of the Liche is equal to 3.3 pheonix bombers, not 10. It even has a lower effective AoE, because the pheonix drops multiple bombs. IMO reduce its cost to around 3-4 pheonixes, and perhaps increase its AoE?

Tech2 Sea Resource Structures
Underwater Moho Mexes take more than twice the buildtime of normal mohos. This is made worse by the fact that a tech2 construction sub costs as much as 1 tech2 bot and 2 farks. This means it actually takes 3x as long to build an underwater moho. Adding in more farks and some naval engineers helps, as naval engineers are much more effecient than farks for about the same cost. However, you need more than 10 extra naval engineers/farks before the underwater moho starts to catch up.

The energy costs of underwater are also about 20% more, and the core moho costs around 45% more metal. That seems really odd to me. The difference in metal cost between the Arm ones are negligible.

Underwater fusions also cost a lot more e (around 40%) and 30% more buildtime (Which would, as above, translate to an even larger difference).

Underwater moho makers have about 20% extra buildtime and cost 20% more e.

I suppose the rationalization on underwater resource structures is they are harder to hit- but sea units cant hit land resources very well either, so i dont see why it shouldnt be vice-versa. They can still be bombed- torpedo bombers make mincemeat out of them, so no need to worry about that.

Glad to do any of the scripting to fix any above issues if they are deemed to be issues.
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