I forgot to send it to ya. Meh... did I miss anybody else?P.U.R.E. 0.55
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Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
I forgot to send it to ya. Meh... did I miss anybody else?-
1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
is the balance anything like the last publicly released PURE version? that was quite possibly the prettiest but worst designed and balanced mod ive ever played. by the end, it broke down into comrushing one player with all the teams commanders then moving up the map as getting a base up fast enough to counter wasnt possible.
why have you made all the numbers so huge?
divide every HP and damage number by like 10,000 so they become numbers you can anaylse in a second without having to count zeroes.
why do the metal extractors make +20?
why dont you divide all the M costs by 20 and make metal extracts extact 1?
you should always work to simplify the numbers. ideally, you want the buildtime displayed to represent seconds, rather than have tonnes of zeros on the end. extra digits do not make it more intense, they just remove a majority of the feedback from the players understanding. when a 100hp unit takes 20 damage, i understand that right away. when a 5000000hp unit takes 123500 damage i will not immidentinly know what % of dam it has taken. unless i stare and figure out the math. this is bad.
the factories take too long to build due to the aforementioned comrush.
A hint about making the game feel proffesional is put in proper unit descriptions. stuff like "quite a large cannon" as a description kinda destorys immersion instantly.
why do metal extractors have such epic health? raiding is impossible and consquently soldier shells are absolutely useless in every possible circumstance. the scale is also very small, and it is rare to have more than six xta-speed slow units at a time (we discovered that a mix of tanks and heavy mechs >>> everything due to range, hp and dps). soldier shell has no purpose at all. the laser tank is better, and thats cheaper.
I could go on and on. I love the artwork but the balance appalls. an this isnt just me, so dont whack out a long post saying im a moron and didnt comprehend the design, i played alongside about 12 people that night, and every single one of them was like 'wtf this is fail'
also, still looking for beta testers ?
why have you made all the numbers so huge?
divide every HP and damage number by like 10,000 so they become numbers you can anaylse in a second without having to count zeroes.
why do the metal extractors make +20?
why dont you divide all the M costs by 20 and make metal extracts extact 1?
you should always work to simplify the numbers. ideally, you want the buildtime displayed to represent seconds, rather than have tonnes of zeros on the end. extra digits do not make it more intense, they just remove a majority of the feedback from the players understanding. when a 100hp unit takes 20 damage, i understand that right away. when a 5000000hp unit takes 123500 damage i will not immidentinly know what % of dam it has taken. unless i stare and figure out the math. this is bad.
the factories take too long to build due to the aforementioned comrush.
A hint about making the game feel proffesional is put in proper unit descriptions. stuff like "quite a large cannon" as a description kinda destorys immersion instantly.
why do metal extractors have such epic health? raiding is impossible and consquently soldier shells are absolutely useless in every possible circumstance. the scale is also very small, and it is rare to have more than six xta-speed slow units at a time (we discovered that a mix of tanks and heavy mechs >>> everything due to range, hp and dps). soldier shell has no purpose at all. the laser tank is better, and thats cheaper.
I could go on and on. I love the artwork but the balance appalls. an this isnt just me, so dont whack out a long post saying im a moron and didnt comprehend the design, i played alongside about 12 people that night, and every single one of them was like 'wtf this is fail'
also, still looking for beta testers ?
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Firstly IK is right.
In zimbabwe where hyperinflation is rampant, banks officially lop of zeroes for this reason. That and because the calculators cannot handle trillions of dollars, and since you can guarantee that the first 6 digits are always zeroes..
The human mind has issues with handling numbers larger than a million. Beyond 1 million the sense of proportions goes out the window and the brain looses any logical sense, as they all look 'big'. Simplify digits where possible.
Also instead of relying on the tool tip descriptions perhaps you can provide a roll over box that shows next to the build icons with bigger pictures and some proper descriptions? You could make it work liek the CA widget that does the help menus, it'd be much better and it could have little statistics and guides like "you cant afford this" or "also built by" or "ETA:" or "must be built on hills or geothermal vents"
In zimbabwe where hyperinflation is rampant, banks officially lop of zeroes for this reason. That and because the calculators cannot handle trillions of dollars, and since you can guarantee that the first 6 digits are always zeroes..
The human mind has issues with handling numbers larger than a million. Beyond 1 million the sense of proportions goes out the window and the brain looses any logical sense, as they all look 'big'. Simplify digits where possible.
Also instead of relying on the tool tip descriptions perhaps you can provide a roll over box that shows next to the build icons with bigger pictures and some proper descriptions? You could make it work liek the CA widget that does the help menus, it'd be much better and it could have little statistics and guides like "you cant afford this" or "also built by" or "ETA:" or "must be built on hills or geothermal vents"
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Damage / Health / Heal / Shield values have been all divided by 100, for the MP beta, which I'm finalizing for Monday.
A unit with 5000 hitpoints now has 50, for example.
Economic values have all been divided by 10- a Miner makes 2, for example.
I'll also write the Lua to divide starting resources by 10, and there ya go- smaller numbers across the board. Won't help much, but meh, I'm tired of reading complaints about something so completely trivial.
A unit with 5000 hitpoints now has 50, for example.
Economic values have all been divided by 10- a Miner makes 2, for example.
I'll also write the Lua to divide starting resources by 10, and there ya go- smaller numbers across the board. Won't help much, but meh, I'm tired of reading complaints about something so completely trivial.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
calculate as fast as possible
100-20
10000000-2000000
now do this when ingame, having to manage everything, what do you think is easyer and less annoying?
100-20
10000000-2000000
now do this when ingame, having to manage everything, what do you think is easyer and less annoying?
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
The problem there, Hoi, is that it's not like that, not really. Damage is a floating-point operation, and depending on the angle of the hit, it's going to return a long float that's fractional. So, it's not really 100-20, it's 100-20.193291 or whatever. And due to the way that P.U.R.E. works, it's more complex than that- a hit on the front of a tank would be 100-5, but a hit on the rear is 100-20, with all stops in between, depending on the angle. But it'll make things feel more comfy, and I won't have to hear as much bitching about it, so, meh, the customer is always right, etc.
[EDIT]Done and done. You can even set up custom resource levels, P.U.R.E. will auto-adjust them downwards. So a 1000/1000 start is now a 100/100 start, with additional storage granted by the units, etc.[/EDIT]
[EDIT]Done and done. You can even set up custom resource levels, P.U.R.E. will auto-adjust them downwards. So a 1000/1000 start is now a 100/100 start, with additional storage granted by the units, etc.[/EDIT]
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Argh its not about calculating exactly its about mental representation, precise values are irrelevant, fuzzy values are everything. It doesnt matter how many decimal places there are, the user see 20.* they dont care if its 20 21 20.3 recurring etc.
Whereas with the second example the user cannot do the calculation immediatley and has to add the extra step of counting the zeros. They know the number beginning with 1 is larger than the one beginning with 2 but they could be orders of magnitude out unless they count the zeros.
Imagine if an employer wrote you a very important check and forgot a zero on the end?
Whereas with the second example the user cannot do the calculation immediatley and has to add the extra step of counting the zeros. They know the number beginning with 1 is larger than the one beginning with 2 but they could be orders of magnitude out unless they count the zeros.
Imagine if an employer wrote you a very important check and forgot a zero on the end?
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Oh for the love of christ, just shut up.
Go yell at smoth for gundams resource model as well.
Tired of all this nitpicking bullshit.
Go yell at smoth for gundams resource model as well.
Tired of all this nitpicking bullshit.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Meh, it's fixed, non-issue, moving on.
And trust me, Forb... I understand what you mean, but it's my job to fix as much nit-picking stuff as I can, tbh, whether or not it makes me grumpy, so long as it's reasonable.
For example, the transformation of the HeavyTrooper is now queue-able- somebody in the Beta has been asking for that, since it was put in, so, meh, it's fixed now, just like the bazillion other minor details that I've addressed over the last month.
This "minor" stuff is frequently the most aggravating, in my experience, because I know that there are "bigger fish" to deal with- balance, getting my act together, in terms of promotional efforts, getting to the website, etc. I just barely dug up enough time to do a new Intro screen, to finally replace the previous one with something that's a little classier (imo, of course). But it's all necessary, to present the most polished game I can.
I've taken another look at doing a "help" display, and I actually think I might have a good idea for doing that now- something simple and straightforward that isn't confusing and just presents the stuff to people in a straightforward way. I won't get back to actually doing anything with this idea until Sunday-ish, but meh, I'll see if I can get it done before the initial MP beta release on Monday.
And trust me, Forb... I understand what you mean, but it's my job to fix as much nit-picking stuff as I can, tbh, whether or not it makes me grumpy, so long as it's reasonable.
For example, the transformation of the HeavyTrooper is now queue-able- somebody in the Beta has been asking for that, since it was put in, so, meh, it's fixed now, just like the bazillion other minor details that I've addressed over the last month.
This "minor" stuff is frequently the most aggravating, in my experience, because I know that there are "bigger fish" to deal with- balance, getting my act together, in terms of promotional efforts, getting to the website, etc. I just barely dug up enough time to do a new Intro screen, to finally replace the previous one with something that's a little classier (imo, of course). But it's all necessary, to present the most polished game I can.
I've taken another look at doing a "help" display, and I actually think I might have a good idea for doing that now- something simple and straightforward that isn't confusing and just presents the stuff to people in a straightforward way. I won't get back to actually doing anything with this idea until Sunday-ish, but meh, I'll see if I can get it done before the initial MP beta release on Monday.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
The small 'notpick' things:
- have the greatest impact as they tend to happen regularly and as a result are highly visible to the end user
- are the most annoying because they nag at you
- are some of the easiest things to fix
- almost always get dismissed by content devs
- can never be swept under the carpet
- will always be complained about until they're fixed, dont blame the one person going on about it, instead be thankful your at the '1 person' stage and not at the ' raging mob' stage
- if left unfixed can critically damage relations between content developers and their playerbases
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Yet he fixed it with some very nice lua, and you are still going on about it.
You make it sound like this was the end of the world (actually, not so much you as IK). It's not. It could have simply been addressed and that it is important to you and then you could have dropped it.
Small things get fixed in order of importance, and having some whiny person making large posts about one small issue is freaking annoying.
Explain to me why everything must be in TA terms for you? Additionally, over-inflating the numbers does you no good towards making your point. It was clear enough to say that he was using numbers too large for you to comprehend.
Edit: Random players go by percentages. Not raw numbers where damage is concerned. And most cba to give a flying crap about it. They look at the healthbar, and that's that.
Would you prefer "STFU"?Simply telling people who notify you of them to shut up will only leave you worse off in the end.
You make it sound like this was the end of the world (actually, not so much you as IK). It's not. It could have simply been addressed and that it is important to you and then you could have dropped it.
Small things get fixed in order of importance, and having some whiny person making large posts about one small issue is freaking annoying.
Explain to me why everything must be in TA terms for you? Additionally, over-inflating the numbers does you no good towards making your point. It was clear enough to say that he was using numbers too large for you to comprehend.
Edit: Random players go by percentages. Not raw numbers where damage is concerned. And most cba to give a flying crap about it. They look at the healthbar, and that's that.
Last edited by Forboding Angel on 08 Aug 2008, 22:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Guessmyname
- Posts: 3301
- Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 21:07
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
AF, he is fixing them. There's no need to complain. Sure what you just said may be true: it doesn't make them any less annoying. They're distractions from the meat of the job: content creation and integration (ie creating units and slotting them in), which - in my case at any rate - is the best part of modding and the part that mod and game creators enjoy the most.
In any case, he's fixing them. Move on.
EDIT: tl;dr - what Forb just said in a less confrontational manner...
In any case, he's fixing them. Move on.
EDIT: tl;dr - what Forb just said in a less confrontational manner...
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Meh... enough, already.
Everybody who's been in the Beta knows that I take their reports seriously, and fix whatever I'm actually capable of fixing.
Aside from the forced-fire-at-Neutrals thing, the current list of major bugs and beefs that aren't major feature requests or problems with the current Spring deliverable (which should be addressed when Settings.exe is updated, btw, which is why I brought that up, what, a month ago?)... is... zero... right now.
That doesn't tell me it's perfect, and it says nothing about the game balance, which is probably really 'orrible right now, but can only be fixed once MP betatesting commences- unless something major happens to me, like getting hit by lightning, that will be MONDAY.
And it may just be that my beta testers are too lazy to run the current build and give me feedback, of course But I can only address things that I'm actually aware of, obviously- a game designer can do a lot of things, but mind-reading isn't one of them.
****************************************************
The build-menu helper is, amazingly enough, almost done already. I'll have a screen, as soon as I finish a mockup.
It turned out to be ridiculously easy to make, once I knew how to get the context. I owe a big public "thanks" to BigHead, for making the Build Costs Lua. I'm not using that code, as I don't want to display it the way he did, or display the same information, but his code did show me how to use Find on a Tooltip item and get context, which was the problem I was having with this- the display's pretty trivial, tbh.
Anyhow, wherever you are, BigHead, thanks, I've left off on this for several months, simply because of that one issue.
Everybody who's been in the Beta knows that I take their reports seriously, and fix whatever I'm actually capable of fixing.
Aside from the forced-fire-at-Neutrals thing, the current list of major bugs and beefs that aren't major feature requests or problems with the current Spring deliverable (which should be addressed when Settings.exe is updated, btw, which is why I brought that up, what, a month ago?)... is... zero... right now.
That doesn't tell me it's perfect, and it says nothing about the game balance, which is probably really 'orrible right now, but can only be fixed once MP betatesting commences- unless something major happens to me, like getting hit by lightning, that will be MONDAY.
And it may just be that my beta testers are too lazy to run the current build and give me feedback, of course
But I can only address things that I'm actually aware of, obviously- a game designer can do a lot of things, but mind-reading isn't one of them.****************************************************
The build-menu helper is, amazingly enough, almost done already. I'll have a screen, as soon as I finish a mockup.
It turned out to be ridiculously easy to make, once I knew how to get the context. I owe a big public "thanks" to BigHead, for making the Build Costs Lua. I'm not using that code, as I don't want to display it the way he did, or display the same information, but his code did show me how to use Find on a Tooltip item and get context, which was the problem I was having with this- the display's pretty trivial, tbh.
Anyhow, wherever you are, BigHead, thanks, I've left off on this for several months, simply because of that one issue.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Here we go- just a quick mockup, mind ye, I've gotta go now:
Also, in case anybody cares, here's the latest startscreen. I like it a lot better than the old one- now I just have to find time to make more
Also, in case anybody cares, here's the latest startscreen. I like it a lot better than the old one- now I just have to find time to make more
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
great, i might use that too, well, one day, when i actually have something to use it for 
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Foreboding, I wasn't complaining to argh about not fixing small bugs. I appreciate argh pays attention to the little details. If anything ti was directed at you for dismissing it. It wasn't really a complain anyway it was more a statement of fact and opinion, nor did I intend it to be a start of a discussion, a standalone post that would not be discussed to make a point, and I made it. ok?
Argh, if you could make the pop up appear as close to the build icon being moused over without obscuring things then that would be great, and I like the little mini screenshot, I look forward to any beta 5 you put out, and I promise Ill take a look at beta 4 today. I've had work this week and very little energy to do much more than look at websites after work.
Also, I think that start screen would make a very good 'coming soon' image as a place holder for a P.U.R.E website. Simply center it on a webpage, add a 'coming soon' text in the middle, and make the background colour match up.
Here is an example you can leech
Argh, if you could make the pop up appear as close to the build icon being moused over without obscuring things then that would be great, and I like the little mini screenshot, I look forward to any beta 5 you put out, and I promise Ill take a look at beta 4 today. I've had work this week and very little energy to do much more than look at websites after work.
Also, I think that start screen would make a very good 'coming soon' image as a place holder for a P.U.R.E website. Simply center it on a webpage, add a 'coming soon' text in the middle, and make the background colour match up.
Here is an example you can leech
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Archangel of Death
- Posts: 854
- Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 18:15
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Make it blink red a couple times after a while!
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
"I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that..."
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
MP beta coming Monday, you say?
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.55
Since when do you have time for MP betas neddie =_=