Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!
Moderator: Moderators
JUNO should be ISINTERCEPTABLE = 0 (or whatever the tag is)
Thinking ftw.
Krogoth wouldn't be so overpowered if it DID NOT crush other units, that was the tradeoff before. It was powerfull before, but could be dealt with by using masses of smaller units to surround and pound.
In OTA, the Krogoth was never that size either, it was closer to the size of the Bantha as far as appearance and scale.
Bring back Dragon's Teeth Crushing ftw.. tired of the porc.
and Btw, in order for the commando to capture behind enemy lines, or to freeze capture a defence, it needs stealth and cloaking.. Not 1 or the other.
If Cloaked with no stealth, guns will still kill them easily at the range they need to be to init a capture, If stealth but no cloak, as soon as they get in range, they're going to be shot at as well.
Thinking ftw.
Krogoth wouldn't be so overpowered if it DID NOT crush other units, that was the tradeoff before. It was powerfull before, but could be dealt with by using masses of smaller units to surround and pound.
In OTA, the Krogoth was never that size either, it was closer to the size of the Bantha as far as appearance and scale.
Bring back Dragon's Teeth Crushing ftw.. tired of the porc.
and Btw, in order for the commando to capture behind enemy lines, or to freeze capture a defence, it needs stealth and cloaking.. Not 1 or the other.
If Cloaked with no stealth, guns will still kill them easily at the range they need to be to init a capture, If stealth but no cloak, as soon as they get in range, they're going to be shot at as well.
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- Posts: 933
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 02:04
What are you people talking about? Its targetable=0 (Thats the tag). Its always been targetable=0. At least take a look at modit before saying that it shouldnt be targetable.
I say make the juno a siesmic detector, and call it something like 'ECM Facility' or such. Since these are both unused, radar-related buildings, making them just one building might help. Def bring down its buildtime (ATM more than a fusion) and the cost/buildtime of its missiles too (ATM it has a longer buildtime than nukes).
Could make it a targeting facility too, but you need so many targetting facilities to make a difference. So why not just make advanced radars (Or hell, even radars?) targeting facilities? So that the more radars you build, the more accurate your radar blobs. Seems like a really elegant solution to the 'you need 8 targetting facilities to see a difference' problem.
If your enemy has 5 nukes, you should at least have 2 antinukes by then!
I say make the juno a siesmic detector, and call it something like 'ECM Facility' or such. Since these are both unused, radar-related buildings, making them just one building might help. Def bring down its buildtime (ATM more than a fusion) and the cost/buildtime of its missiles too (ATM it has a longer buildtime than nukes).
Could make it a targeting facility too, but you need so many targetting facilities to make a difference. So why not just make advanced radars (Or hell, even radars?) targeting facilities? So that the more radars you build, the more accurate your radar blobs. Seems like a really elegant solution to the 'you need 8 targetting facilities to see a difference' problem.
You need 5 nukes all launching at the same time to overcome a single antinuke system. Range doesnt seem to make much of a difference, 5 is the number.Question: Do mobile antinukes occasionally still miss if shot at by more than 1 nuke launcher? I've heard this and it makes me nervous about building them as a backup.
If your enemy has 5 nukes, you should at least have 2 antinukes by then!
- Foxomaniac
- Posts: 691
- Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 16:59
W/ suggestions from Maciho, I made a mutator that does the following changes :
Actual mutator for those of you who want to test : http://froob.iamacup.com/temp/gfest.sdz .
>__>.
Code: Select all
[TWEAK] Commando : increased capture speed by 100, gave cloak back, removed stealth, slightly lowered buildtime and energy costs, slightly increased metal costs.
[FIX] Seaplane swarmers : Fixed air-to-air damage, works properly now.
[GENERAL] Seaplanes : To diffrentiate between core's and ARM's core's seaplanes are able to land in the sea while arm's floats!.
[TWEAK] EMP Missiles / Tactical nukes (also known as cruise missiles) : EMP missile M-per-shot cost reduced to 400 from 750 while E cost remains 23k, Cruise missile Energy reduced from 23k to 15k while M cost remains 750.
[TWEAK] Fido : buildtime reduced by 2000 units to 5600 (2000 above morties).
[TWEAK] Juno (both sides) : halved energy cost, reduced BT by 1k, reduced charge time to a minute and a half (same as EMP missile), 10k energy per shot instead of 50k.
[TWEAK/ABILITY] Minelayer (both sides) : Added in the ability to reclaim back.
[TWEAK] Gimp : Increased DPS to 195 from 130, metal cost increased to 350.
[TWEAK/GENERAL : AMPHIB] All amphib units go slightly faster / retain their speed when underwater.
[TWEAK] Eradicator / Chainsaw : Buildtime lowered by 8k (total of 11k), Metal costs reduced to 622 for arm and 648 for core.
[TWEAK] Termite : Reduced energy costs, a little buildtime.
[FIX] Skuttle : Damage to comms when killed = 1250, damage to comm when successfully kamikazed = 1000 - wierd so it has been reversed.
[TWEAK] Skuttle : Lowered buildtime to 25000, lowered energy cost to 18130.
[TWEAK] Raider/Stumpy : 200 HP decrease, Raider's max speed is now 2.5 while stumpy's is 2.6.
>__>.
Id put it the other way around, Arm is meant to be Sneaky. But differentiation is good, and it uses both of the new seaplane features! Though planes without gunship movement still seem to 'prefer' landing on land.[GENERAL] Seaplanes : To diffrentiate between core's and ARM's core's seaplanes are able to land in the sea while arm's floats!
Dont know if such a decrease is needed TBH, flashies/gators are better HP-for-cost, and have better DPS without even calculating against cost.[TWEAK] Raider/Stumpy : 200 HP decrease, Raider's max speed is now 2.5 while stumpy's is 2.6.
On the whole nice changes and good work! Id suggest at least most of these be implemented ASAP. Especially the Amphib stuff.
Last edited by Saktoth on 02 Feb 2007, 02:59, edited 1 time in total.
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- Posts: 933
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 02:04
I renew my suggestion that if someone has enough time to make numerous specific unit tweaks, same said someone could take the time to enter all pertinent unit data into an Excel spreadsheet for the purposes of definitive mathematical balance as opposed to gut feeling and laborious observation balance. "Wouldn't it be cool if" only goes so far.
Fox's changes, while not bad ones (except for the Raider/Stumpy bit - nerfage is fine so long as something's done to the more popular and powerful Flashes and Gators first), are predominantly lateral - while they make a few units relatively useful again, most changes are more a matter of preference than balance. Fox, you've got the time. Excel, man! Excel!
Stevie, the frozen waste's making you bitter - sarcasm is intended more for humorous effect than serious point making; no Jonathan Swifts here. Anyway, change your location to Deepest, Darkest, Moose-Infested Canada already.^^
Fox's changes, while not bad ones (except for the Raider/Stumpy bit - nerfage is fine so long as something's done to the more popular and powerful Flashes and Gators first), are predominantly lateral - while they make a few units relatively useful again, most changes are more a matter of preference than balance. Fox, you've got the time. Excel, man! Excel!

Stevie, the frozen waste's making you bitter - sarcasm is intended more for humorous effect than serious point making; no Jonathan Swifts here. Anyway, change your location to Deepest, Darkest, Moose-Infested Canada already.^^
- Foxomaniac
- Posts: 691
- Joined: 18 Jan 2006, 16:59
You there, yes you with the severe confidence deficiency. I am simply DEMONSTRATING a few CHANGES in REALITY instead of in THEORY.Day wrote:sigh... fox....
I am NOT trying to TAKE-OVER BA.
Yes! Yes! We should all make different and pointless mutators that NO ONE plays!BigSteve wrote:I seriously think people should make more pointless mutators, we don't have anywhere near enough of them. Dividing the aa players even further should be our top priority.
/sarcasm mode off
Especially this mutator which is INTENDED for TESTING.
Some of the changes in that list are weird straight off the bat, it's VERY unlikely to see them in your typical BA update.
When was the last time you saw gimps, fidos, junos, skuttles and termites being mentioned in BA's changelog?
For some of the above units, no one even builds them!
Oh and if you downloaded the mutator, you'll see that the mod's name does NOT contain any words that make it relate to BA. (It'll show up as Geytourfest Ultimate Edition =P).
What kind of stats?Tired wrote:*snip*
Excel, man! Excel!
*/snip*
Doing such a job would be a horrible headache @_@, why don't you do it? =P.
You're the king of minutes after all!
P.S, to quote myself in lobby while talking with Saktoth :
I expect everyone to bitch at me rather than discuss whether a particular change is beneficial or not
- Machiosabre
- Posts: 1474
- Joined: 25 Dec 2005, 22:56
Should probably explain the motivation behind the stumpy change, it's actually a remark from demo that best explains it, in a game I was speccing I said that stumpies were basicly lvl2 units (high speed high armor combo) and demo was all like, thats crazy a warrior would be a lvl2 unit aswel.
Which is a really sweet comparison, you see stumpies have more armor, are nearly twice as fast AND are cheaper than warriors.
It also fits in with the history of changes to medium tanks, since they were really slow before and never got used they got hp boost after hp boost, then a new version of spring comes along which causes medium tanks to go faster than the speed of light, and they get to keep most of the speed and all of the armor, which is crazy.
It does make sense in comparison to flashes and gators I guess, and Tired is probably right in saying they should be changed 1st, also since 90% of the changes to aa/ba have been based on flashes/gators.
They don't look to strange if you compare most stats, but a flash is faster than a zipper, and speed is really the most important stat if you value just ignoring defenses and zipping past them or getting close enough to fire at em without taking a lot of hits.
Since they already have great DPS they really only need 1/3rd of the hp of units with a maxpeed of 1 to be as effective.
Which is a really sweet comparison, you see stumpies have more armor, are nearly twice as fast AND are cheaper than warriors.
It also fits in with the history of changes to medium tanks, since they were really slow before and never got used they got hp boost after hp boost, then a new version of spring comes along which causes medium tanks to go faster than the speed of light, and they get to keep most of the speed and all of the armor, which is crazy.
It does make sense in comparison to flashes and gators I guess, and Tired is probably right in saying they should be changed 1st, also since 90% of the changes to aa/ba have been based on flashes/gators.
They don't look to strange if you compare most stats, but a flash is faster than a zipper, and speed is really the most important stat if you value just ignoring defenses and zipping past them or getting close enough to fire at em without taking a lot of hits.
Since they already have great DPS they really only need 1/3rd of the hp of units with a maxpeed of 1 to be as effective.
- 1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Fox is not competing with BA, the file is not on UF and its not even a complete mod. Its just some files demonstrating the sort of changes he is talking about and how they might be implemented. Noize has said he is kinda busy and doesnt have time for a lot of changes, Fox is just trying to make it easier by not just saying 'Dude! How cool would it be if you did this?' but actually showing how it can be done, and doing it. Honestly, if everyone gave the code for the changes and bugfixes they suggested, the progress on BA would probably be smoother (and we'd get better thought out suggestions. :D). Seriously, even if Fox was making a branch mod- who cares? BA is a branch of AA in the first place.
I dont think the answer is to change hp/damage/cost. If the acceleration, deceleration and turnrate of tanks was reduced (Esp on lvl1), making them harder to maneuver, it may give kbots back some of their former advantage. It may also help if kbots were made to aim slightly faster. The advantage of the tank would be in its 'charge', once its up to speed, it can penetrate defenses, and outrun units. But in a skirmish situation kbots would be the more mobile ones.
Kbots have two primary advantages: They are more maneuverable, and can go over steeper terrain. Since the change to spring that makes units no longer slow down when given orders, kbots have lost a lot of their advantage on maneuverability. On flatter maps, tanks are just plain better.if tanks are faster AND tougher than kbots, whos going to make kbots?
I dont think the answer is to change hp/damage/cost. If the acceleration, deceleration and turnrate of tanks was reduced (Esp on lvl1), making them harder to maneuver, it may give kbots back some of their former advantage. It may also help if kbots were made to aim slightly faster. The advantage of the tank would be in its 'charge', once its up to speed, it can penetrate defenses, and outrun units. But in a skirmish situation kbots would be the more mobile ones.
BA is so close that any changes from here on out should be pretty marginal.
gators and flashes are a tiny bit OP...they are the bread and butter of flat comet-style maps, from what i've seen, so here's two marginal changes i'll offer:
1. increase their turning radius
2. make their death explosion give slight damage to nearby units
1 is probably a more agreeable nerf...really only hurts if there's lots wreckage to drive through, or on tight maps.
2 would actually make them a bit more powerful if they get inside and damage an enemy's base, but less powerful if the enemy intercepts them before they get there.
something else i'd like to see is resurrection units getting help. they are very rarely used, and i think the main reason is that it takes sooo damn long to resurrect something. could make it 25%-50% faster and they still wouldn't be used much, but would be more viable.
gators and flashes are a tiny bit OP...they are the bread and butter of flat comet-style maps, from what i've seen, so here's two marginal changes i'll offer:
1. increase their turning radius
2. make their death explosion give slight damage to nearby units
1 is probably a more agreeable nerf...really only hurts if there's lots wreckage to drive through, or on tight maps.
2 would actually make them a bit more powerful if they get inside and damage an enemy's base, but less powerful if the enemy intercepts them before they get there.
something else i'd like to see is resurrection units getting help. they are very rarely used, and i think the main reason is that it takes sooo damn long to resurrect something. could make it 25%-50% faster and they still wouldn't be used much, but would be more viable.
Last edited by hunterw on 02 Feb 2007, 18:41, edited 2 times in total.