Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!

Spiking · Post by **Spiking** » 30 Jan 2007, 23:50

If you guys have time I think that sea vs land balance is an issue that's gone majorly ignored for a long time- not that there are huge problems, but I personally have found sea to be woefully unequipped for ever taking on land. In particular, even level 2 sea seems to die quite easily to swarms of high class hovers- It seems to me that level 2 ships should be able to outclass hovers, much as level 2 ground can outclass them head on. Not to mention the incredible strength of torpedo bombers, which the last time I checked gibbed even AA ships in a few hits for a relatively cheap cost. What I really think Sea needs is some of it's old ships back- a few versions back Caydr removed the Medium range bombardment ship and the LRPC ship- The medium range was a great choice for cheaply bombarding enemy ships far away or land emplacements. The LRPC ship would help sea assult land in the late game.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 31 Jan 2007, 00:05

everyone knows naval needs work. its just while there are still issues of land and air, sea plays second fiddle, as its a whole leigon of balance on its own that isnt applicable to 95% of games.

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 31 Jan 2007, 00:09

oh yeah I forgot bout warriors for anti spam, duh ><,
and I suppose emp luger would be overdoing the emp a little, I can't help it though...
I just luurrrve ma shiny blue schizzle!

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 31 Jan 2007, 00:20

And does arm have any effective anti spam units at level 1?

Does Core?!

Perhaps flamer/lightning turrets could be antispam. Give them an AoE so they would behave a little like Depthcharge Launchers used to (But on land obviously). ATM they are only really good as anti-artil (Cuz when popped down, they are as hard as nuts). That is, if people really think an anti-spam weapon is needed (Im not really sure it is).

May I ask why the tac nuke only has 3000 for range while the EMP missile has 6000?

Cuz the EMP doesnt actually kill anything? Well, not now that its impulse has been removed. >_<

IMO the tac nuke and EMP launcher are too expensive to fire. Thats the major obstacle in building them, not the range (Twice that of an anni or MRPC). The structure itself is not very expensive (Though it takes forever to build), but for each shot it is 750m and 23437e!

After 2 shots, its as expensive as an anni. After 4 shots, its more expensive than a bertha.

Granted, the tacnuke has twice the range of the Anni, and two missiles is enough to take out an anni or a shield (Also a bertha, but the bertha has twice the range so its not gonna happen). But you are prettymuch only breaking even if you can do this. If it were made cheaper to fire, it would make a nice step between MRPC's and LRPC's for range, if you want prescision strikes. Alternatively yeah, just up its range and it becomes a sort of bertha-alternative.

The EMP launcher is prettymuch only good for taking out antinukes and shields (But it does this very well). So i dunno about that...

The EMP silos seem to work fine now, but did you also check the targeting/range stuff for tactical nukes?

Tacnukes work fine. They do take a bit of a dive just before their max range, but they do reach it. You can actually exceed their max range just slightly if you C it and aim it at the sky above your target. The weapontimer has to be relatively close to the actual range to prevent this being exploited.

About the Luger (arm), mobile arty (core).

Sounds good, perhaps give it a low/high traj toggle like the guardian/toaster.

Metal Maker Economy
How useful metal makers are all depends on how much metal there is in the map (And where it is). Take Altored Divide. It has 45 metal per team and 57 contested metal. Even if a team managed to take all of the middle metal spots (Which is an unrealistic situation in most cases), the other team needs only 57 metal makers to make up for it. On a standard 5v5 (For which the map is built) thats only 11.4 metal makers per player- not all that many. When you factor in all the effort that would have gone into taking all those mexes and defending them, porcing becomes more attractive.

For my part, ive seen a more porcing, and sucessful porcing, on Altored. Its even more of a problem on porcier maps with and/or maps with less contested metal (SSB, Tangerine, Tropical).

On maps like Comet Catcher of course, where the concept of 'my mexes' and 'contested mexes' is fluid at best, its much less of a problem. But then, Comet Catcher is not the standard map design.

LordMatt · Post by **LordMatt** » 31 Jan 2007, 00:22

Klopper wrote: Skeeters nerfed? So no more rush 3 Skeeters = own all sea?

Please...If you couldn't fight off 3 skeets with previous stats you're a nub. There are multiple different ways of doing it.

Saktoth wrote: For my part, ive seen a more porcing, and sucessful porcing, on Altored. Its even more of a problem on porcier maps with and/or maps with less contested metal (SSB, Tangerine, Tropical).

Let's not balance the mod for porc maps. Besides a concentrated metal maker economy is far more vulnerable than a spread out mex economy.

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 31 Jan 2007, 00:53

Let's not balance the mod for porc maps.

No, lets balance it to comet... the maps i listed are only some of the most popular maps being played ATM...

Not to mention the incredible strength of torpedo bombers, which the last time I checked gibbed even AA ships in a few hits for a relatively cheap cost.

I used to have this problem too. Build scout boats. Lots and lots of scout boats. Since scout boats are so damn cheap and have AA missiles, even though the torpedos can gib them, torpedos are just not cost effective for taking out that many scouts. Forget AA ships and static AA they are prettymuch useless.

Obviously this isnt ideal from a design perspective, but for your games you might find it useful.

hunterw · Post by **hunterw** » 31 Jan 2007, 01:21

I say do a compromise for the MM's

60 is probably too little, but 100 is way too much. How's 70-75?

Licho · Post by **Licho** » 31 Jan 2007, 01:49

Is seaplane swarmer (arm) damage vs. torpedo bombers correct?

Currently you need 5 to kill one torpedo bomber under 1 minute. What air unit should be better at killing torpedo bomber than seaplane fighter?

LordMatt · Post by **LordMatt** » 31 Jan 2007, 03:09

hunterw wrote:I say do a compromise for the MM's

60 is probably too little, but 100 is way too much. How's 70-75?

No they're fine as is.

Saktoth wrote: No, lets balance it to comet... the maps i listed are only some of the most popular maps being played ATM...

Popular != good, and I'm hardly a big booster of comet...

Also, if you play good maps with too many players, you're not going to get very good games.

el_matarife · Post by **el_matarife** » 31 Jan 2007, 03:37

The Juggernaut and Catapult are no longer EMP resistant, is this a bug or a feature? (Making them the only T3 units not to be EMP safe)

(This is for 4.6 unless you changed any of this for 4.61)

Saktoth · Post by **Saktoth** » 31 Jan 2007, 03:50

Yeah the seaplane swarmer hasnt been fixed yet, it needs to get the same treatement the other fighters got.

On the topic of broken planes. The Torpedo Seaplane still has noautofire=1. Most bombers have this (I guess so they dont fly up in the air and start bombing just anything?), but regular torpedo bombers do not have it, and nor should torpedo seaplanes. On top of this, it means the Torpedo Seaplane wont fire its AA missile either (I dont think most people even know it has one!).

On the topic of nobody knowing something has AA missiles, the Pheonix Arm heavy bomber. You know that little gun on top of its head? Its not useless- its an AA missile. But because it has noautofire=1, it never fires unless you specifically tell it to target a plane (And who uses bombers to attack planes anyway?). So best take noautofire off the Pheonix too, or remove its AA missile. Or something.

Metajo · Post by **Metajo** » 31 Jan 2007, 04:20

HOW LOW CAN AK's GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo

its not a damn scout unit, just because 60 of them can take out your few LLT and HLLT and a Plasma doesn't make them OP

el_matarife · Post by **el_matarife** » 31 Jan 2007, 04:22

Saktoth wrote:Yeah the seaplane swarmer hasnt been fixed yet, it needs to get the same treatement the other fighters got.

Confirmed. No special damage entries on their weapons.

About the torpedo planes: I have noticed they have a distressing tendency to drop torpedoes onto the land if a unit is near the shore. No clue how to fix this unless you can alter their behavior to fire the torpedo closer into the target, and maybe get some engine changes done. They also don't have sonar making them annoying to use on submarine units/buildings unless you have several sonar planes traveling with them so they can see far enough ahead to get off a shot.

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 31 Jan 2007, 04:34

Saktoth wrote:Yeah the seaplane swarmer hasnt been fixed yet, it needs to get the same treatement the other fighters got.

On the topic of broken planes. The Torpedo Seaplane still has noautofire=1. Most bombers have this (I guess so they dont fly up in the air and start bombing just anything?), but regular torpedo bombers do not have it, and nor should torpedo seaplanes. On top of this, it means the Torpedo Seaplane wont fire its AA missile either (I dont think most people even know it has one!).

On the topic of nobody knowing something has AA missiles, the Pheonix Arm heavy bomber. You know that little gun on top of its head? Its not useless- its an AA missile. But because it has noautofire=1, it never fires unless you specifically tell it to target a plane (And who uses bombers to attack planes anyway?). So best take noautofire off the Pheonix too, or remove its AA missile. Or something.

ick. In hindsight, noautofire should be a per-weapon tag.

Foxomaniac · Post by **Foxomaniac** » 31 Jan 2007, 10:54

LordMatt wrote:
Klopper wrote: Skeeters nerfed? So no more rush 3 Skeeters = own all sea?
Please...If you couldn't fight off 3 skeets with previous stats you're a nub. There are multiple different ways of doing it.

Me and Tired extensively tested skeeters against other sea units, they WERE OP.

3 Skeets (costing 300 metal, less time to build + faster speed + "fast unit miss factor" bonus + effective combined DPS of about 190ish + Anti air missile + ability to attack while corvette is still being built =P) vs 1 Corvette (effective combined DPS of 120 + both guns do NOT always attack the same unit, so the DPS can gets split up), winner = skeets.

Skeets beat other naval units semi-cost for cost (most of the time for less) + all those other bonuses.

The only way to deal with skeets was with torpedos from subs - which the skeets can simply outrun the sub or static defense, which is very costly in sea, even then - with enough skeets static defense becomes useless.

Verdict?

Wezel of the sea!

TradeMark · Post by **TradeMark** » 31 Jan 2007, 12:09

Why to balance the mod into specific style of maps.

Just create 10 different mutators for different style of maps, and choose the one what you want to play in that map.

But the problem is: we need to close the room when you change mod >__<

Klopper · Post by **Klopper** » 31 Jan 2007, 12:23

You misunderstood me about the Skeeters LordMatt, what i wanted to say was rushing to sea and getting 3-4 Skeeters to enemy shore as fast as possible has several times granted me the sea dominance since they can kill early sea stuff before it gets built and the com can't shoot/dgun the boats from underwater...but i guess a few less HP don't make them less useful since their advantages are in speed, numbers and aa missiles

Machiosabre · Post by **Machiosabre** » 31 Jan 2007, 12:31

Saktoth wrote:
And does arm have any effective anti spam units at level 1?
Does Core?!

Levelers leap to mind.

in the spirit of antiswarm, whatever happened to the mumbo? now that was an awesome unit, and the core one, was it the shodan or something like that?
now those are exactly what BA needs to beat down late lvl1 spam.

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 31 Jan 2007, 12:56

Give Commanders the "GIMP" Torpedo, its useless against anything.. except super light units such as skeeters :D.

problem solved, but not like anyone will ever listen to me, so fukem.

Foxomaniac · Post by **Foxomaniac** » 31 Jan 2007, 12:57

Machiosabre wrote:
Saktoth wrote:
And does arm have any effective anti spam units at level 1?
Does Core?!
Levelers leap to mind.

in the spirit of antiswarm, whatever happened to the mumbo? now that was an awesome unit, and the core one, was it the shodan or something like that?
now those are exactly what BA needs to beat down late lvl1 spam.

The Shodan was an LLT on REALLY slow wheels - It's not worth using IMO.

The mumbo on the other hand, was AWESOME.

I wish if it comes back =/, panthers aren't that great, mumbo was a medium between bulldog and panther - except that it exploded rather violently when destroyed.

Spring RTS Engine

Balanced Annihilation v4.7 !!