Bitcoin mining made easy

[Neddie]

First, for any assignment of value there are innumerable circumstances in which that assignment is invalid. This is not limited to formal currency.

Second, we can say exceedingly little about the behaviour of prehistoric creatures, and even less about their psychology.

Third, evolution does not invent. Invention is an act confined to sentient entities.

[zwzsg]

Recent advance in archeology supports the theory that Cro-Magnon didn't exterminate Neanderthal, but rather made love with it.

In the stone age, you hate that other tribe not because your chieftain says you must. You hate them because they are alien; different; strange; they are THEM and you are one of US.

In the stone age, evolution made you love that other tribe because mixing genes is good for the specie.

Xenophobia was not invented by nazis.

Jews hating and jew killing is a popular past time of many different culture. Ever heard of Pogrom? What made Nazi stand out was the industrialistion of the slaughter. Not the hating and slaughtering itself. Also, congratulation on your Goodwin! Going from Bitcoin to Nazi didn't look easy at first, but you managed it!

Evolution is one mindless uncaring bitch of an algorithm, but it works, and it made YOU.

If evolution is uncaring, then it does not feel hate either, but rather favors whatever works. Cooperation between individuals is quite an effective strategy to ensure survival of the specie.

So you have to love her the way she is.

Err, humans aren't wild beasts any more. We've got sentience, science, society, and with the advent of genetic technology, I would not rule out the possibility we get the mean to mess with evolution.

Or get smacked.

Smack is french for kiss.

[Anarchid]

but rather made love with it.

Hence the "indirectly". Oh, and cases are not exclusive.

If evolution is uncaring, then it does not feel hate either, but rather favors whatever works. Cooperation between individuals is quite an effective strategy to ensure survival of the specie.

It wasn't all flowers and happiness. Cooperation existed and exists now, but that doesn't say people didn't hate each other and didn't fear the others. Your argument doesn't contradict mine in any way and is, thus, invalid.

favors whatever works

Which isn't always peace and love, is it?

Jews hating and jew killing is a popular past time of many different culture

My point exactly. And not only jews, anybody foreign and strange enough. I wonder why?

Err, humans aren't wild beasts any more. We've got sentience, science, society, and with the advent of genetic technology, I would not rule out the possibility we get the mean to mess with evolution.

We're likely to mess with our genetics and whatnot, but that doesn't anyhow touch evolution. It just continues to walk on her own uncaring self.

For all the years when we already had many of those things, we still evolved. See lactose tolerance in adults.

didn't look easy at first, but you managed it!

I strive for perfection.

[knorke]

Seems Bitcoin discussion is over because nobody wanted to be pro-bitcoins

We're likely to mess with our genetics and whatnot, but that doesn't anyhow touch evolution. It just continues to walk on her own uncaring self.

evolution continues on its own but is incluenced by what evolves. Selective breeding of animals is done by humans since a long time and with modern techniques, even more so.
Nowadays the human gene pool probally gets more/faster mixed because humans can easily travel around the world...that was not possible some generations ago.

[SpliFF]

Seems Bitcoin discussion is over because nobody wanted to be pro-bitcoins

You must have skimmed the discussion. I'm pro-Bitcoin. I just have zero sympathy for people who "invest" or "buy" BTC and lose. The OP wants to buy a mining ASIC. That's an investment that may or may not pay off but either way it says nothing about the usefulness of Bitcoin as a de-centralised token of exchange. Nor does it say anything about the "value" of a coin.

Used as intended Bitcoin is a barter token by the collective agreement of buyers and sellers and most people here just fail to see that (by comparing it to national currencies for example). You don't have to buy BTC, you just have to accept it for your services and find other providers to trade it back to. In both cases you need to first agree on price. If nobody will give you BTC for your services then you aren't an intended Bitcoin user and if decide to exchange national currencies or expend vast amounts of energy for it then you're probably just losing money in the process.

I'm also pro on the ethics of Bitcoin. As my username suggests I'm not of the opinion that something illegal is by definition ethically wrong. Some products are illegal for the wrong reasons and if trading in BTC helps protect the sellers of those products and/or denies the Government tax revenue that's a good thing.

[zwzsg]

It is unlikely that I'll find things I can provide and things I want at the same instant for the same amount of bitcoin. So, if I were a bitcoin user, I would have bitcoin lingering in my wallet, for extended periods of time. It is then relevant to be assured that the bitcoin value (expressed in number of russian vintage photo, in grams of drug, or whatever else I buy) remains somewhat stable.

People of the bitcoin economy do not live on distant planet or estranged island. Instead, they are the same people who probably have jobs paid in their respective national currencies, go buy food in shop with national currency, etc... Today, all markets are interlinked. Therefore, just like there are exchange rate between different national currencies, just like there is business about trading one national currency to another, just like there are economist disserting over the implication of one or other national currency rising or diving compared to others, there is also a business of trading national currencies to bitcoin, and of people shouting random prediction about the quote trend of bitcoin.

The bitcoin differences wrt national currency do not make it immune to the whole conversion exchange rate circus.

That said, I can understand it makes you mad to hear so many people talking of bitcoin as a get-rich scheme, instead of discussing the social, ethical, economical, political implication of a money exchangeable worldwide instantly between two individuals without any middle men.

And no matter how many times I saw your nick, it never occured to me that it could be that kind of spliff.

[knorke]

You like the idea but what about the implementation/reality?

Used as intended Bitcoin is a barter token by the collective agreement of buyers and sellers and most people here just fail to see that (by comparing it to national currencies for example).

"Bitcoin people" fail to see that too, since most of the bartering is vs national currencies. These speculations make up the larger part of BTC value: it is what backs the BTC. BTC should be accepted as payment because of the value of the products/services it buys. Instead its value is the hope that the value will grow larger so later owners can exchange for old money.
Ethical aspects of free currency etc is all nice but if it is abused like that it does not work...
What are the plans to change that?

[SinbadEV]

My biggest frustration with BitCoin is that it has no intrinsic value... it's only measurable value is it's scarcity VS demand... when the demand is 100% artificial... there is no incentive to "having" BitCoins beyond their use as barter tokens... National currencies can be considered a "share" in that nation's economy, commodities trading banks on the intrinsic value of the goods being traded... why bother with currency at all if you just want to barter?... create a system of bartering (I give you a pig, you owe me a pig, at some future date I need a bushel of apples so I get it from you and now you owe me the difference in value between a pig and a bushel of apples)

What I really want to see is one of those practical economist's (like the authors of Freakonomics, Tipping Point or Undercover Economist) take on the subject... because I think my biggest stumbling block is that it doesn't make sense.

My second frustration is that what I initially saw as a way to be free from the shackles our obsolete system is now being mangled by profiteers and being shoehorned into the system instead.

[zwzsg]

(I give you a pig, you owe me a pig, at some future date I need a bushel of apples so I get it from you and now you owe me the difference in value between a pig and a bushel of apples)

I cannot deliver a pig to the other side of the world in a fraction of a second. I cannot deliver a pig without knowing your name and adress. I cannot deliver a pig without involving the national postal services, or a worldwide freight company. I cannot deliver a pig without paying transportation costs and import taxes. I cannot send pig to other countries without involving vetenerary services authorisation (it's not just live animals! Cheese, alcohol, electronic device, about every good has bans and laws on how you may or may not transport it accross countries). Oh, and two halves of pig do not have the same value as a single, entire, live pig.

Barters of physical good only works with your neighbours. Bitcoin, being digital, is anymous, worldwide, instant.

As for speculations, it probably happens because the Bitcoin system is new, so just wait a few years, hopefully it'll settle down.

[NeonStorm]

Evolution is one mindless uncaring bitch of an algorithm, but it works, and it made YOU.

If evolution is uncaring, then it does not feel hate either, but rather favors whatever works. Cooperation between individuals is quite an effective strategy to ensure survival of the specie.

You are not only the sum of your genes, but also of your ideas, etc.

Evolution happens in your mind, with your genes, with ideas, everything!

Maybe Bitcoin is a dinosaur or it is an pre-human-ape - who knows?

_______

(I give you a pig, you owe me a pig, at some future date I need a bushel of apples so I get it from you and now you owe me the difference in value between a pig and a bushel of apples)

How do you measure the value if not with something like a currency?

_______

I am pro anonymous exchange.
But I am against exponentially growth.

All money you don't need for living and can use to spend into forming your environment gives you influence.

If you gain influence by producing goods for other humans with fair work and trade, it is ok.
-> But if we intentionally allow someone to gain this form of influence in other ways, we essentially are responsible for what this person does with this influence.
-> We essentially +1 this person's activities.

And that's the reason I dislike exponentially growth for a single person or group of interests.

Because it makes us indirectly responsible for the activities of some exploiters.

[SinbadEV]

One factor here is that the growth isn't exactly exponential... the difficulty in finding new BitCoins increases as more are calculated so this is very much a temporary deal... once enough BitCoins are out in circulation the Big BitMiners will essentially be breaking even and the small ones won't profit at all...it more readily parallels an investment in resource extraction than the printing of currency... if ridiculous advances in computation show up then there will be a "gold rush" and and a bunch of fresh coins will flood the market and temporarily devalue the existing supply.

[zwzsg]

Depends on which growth you refer too. The number of bitcoin grows. The rate at which the number of bitcoin grows diminish. The rate at which a given computer mines bitcoin decrease.

If we assume the number of users of bitcoin grows, then the value of each bitcoin increase. It is this number that may grow exponentially, and unfairly favors the people who got bitcoins first, and would subsequently become exponentially rich.

[varikonniemi]

Seems Bitcoin discussion is over because nobody wanted to be pro-bitcoins

Anybody who is not pro-Bitcoin clearly does not understand Bitcoin.

Now compare that to paypal 3% + 3$ or credit card fees at ~2%

It should not be thought of as a currency, investment or commodity, but as a technology. It does not matter if the price is 1$ or 1000$ per bitcoin, only thing that matters is that the price should be relatively stable so it can work as it was intended.

That said, the recent price development has made me a very sad panda.

Varikonniemi Hashstation live view after mt.Red was closed down: http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/u ... TuZ6pne726

[Peet]

only thing that matters is that the price should be relatively stable so it can work as it was intended

Well as you can clearly see, it isn't. Better add an 80% value drop term to that image.

[varikonniemi]

Yes, who would have thought a market can be windy when 20 thousand new traders/speculators per day flood the same trading site? There are bound to be volatility as long as there are profits to be made. The adoption rate of Bitcoin is currently at about 1 promille. You can think of it as the internet when netscape was released. It is readily available, the ones in the know understand it's potential, but in the news you see mainly ignorant fucks who laugh at it since they cannot understand it yet.

Every bubble that bursts will lessen the next bubble in severity until we have reached cruising altitude. When Bitcoin was released the main dev predicted/calculated there will be 2-5 bubbles before we achieve a somewhat sustainable Bitcoin distribution. The two first ones have now popped.

BTW gold dropped over 10% yesterday, even though the market cap is over 1500 times bigger. OOOH it is so volatile, RUN!

[gajop]

BTW gold dropped over 10% yesterday, even though the market cap is over 1500 times bigger. OOOH it is so volatile, RUN!

OK, won't be using gold to conduct my trades...

Anybody who is not pro-Bitcoin clearly does not understand Bitcoin.

This is not how you prove a point.

[varikonniemi]

What will you be using? You realize the US dollar has lost some 97% of its value in a few decades thanks to runaway inflation? dolla, dolla, bill ya'll

This does not exist in Bitcoin, but is guaranteed with any FIAT currency.

If you call Bitcoins stupid after understanding all the technical details of the system, then I'm interested in your thoughts. But calling it stupid and then not being able to answer some of the basic questions.... then I'll just think you're stupid.

[malric]

This does not exist in Bitcoin, but is guaranteed with any FIAT currency.

So, if bitcoin does not have inflation, it has deflation? Do you consider that a good thing in all circumstances?

[varikonniemi]

In fact i think the inflation rate should be steady, probably tied to the human population growth so that BTC/pop would stay constant.

A small, controlled, predictable inflation is probably healthy for a currency. Just as gold has. But as soon as any politician has any control over the rate, the currency is doomed.

I think Bitcoin could be changed to work in this way by a majority vote, but i am not sure, nor do i think most Bitcoin enthusiasts share this view with me.

[malric]

I think Bitcoin could be changed to work in this way by a majority vote, but i am not sure, nor do i think most Bitcoin enthusiasts share this view with me.

Although I agree in general with you (steady inflation related to human population), can't notice that we arrive back at politics if you imply any type of majority voting .

On the other hand, maybe bitcoin advantage is that it makes mobility easier. Nowadays if I want to change my savings from currency A to B I would need to go to a bank. With bitcoin, even with multiple systems, this might be easier. So (maybe) you could live in one country, but just "adhere" to the economical politics of another.