TA Derivative Balancing Theory Discussion
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I've seen you play EE from time to time though. EE has decent balance, but it's still nowhere near perfect.Fanger wrote:I do prove you wrong.. Go play EE its balanced..
Not sure where you got this from, unless you mean anti-air > air.BA's cookie cutter balance scheme is fundamentally flawed and quite honestly is simply stupid.
x counters y counters b counters d counters g counters x and y counters p etc...
yes there are (these assbackward people are you)Spring, and by extention, tauniverse, has some of the most bassakward people I have ever seen.
LordMatt
1) commercial games are often MUCH HARDER to balance than TA clones in spring.
In many games sides are completely unique with different economies. In TA clones units of both sides fullfill similar roles and economic model is exactly same.
2) BA is played most because its played most
Is Windows XP really that much better than modern Linux systems?
It's all just down to current popularity. Until latest week I played much more BA than CA simply becuse BA is more popular and it was easier to get a game. Most people dont even want to try other mod or wait an hour in new game.
Hopefully that has now changed and I can play CA more..
The transition from AA to BA wasnt instant either, it took over 3 weeks. It involved massive #main spam and AA was broken at that time, while BA is well playable atm.
You can read more in this fun article about spring delusion http://www.darkstars.co.uk/2007/the-spr ... on-part-1/
1) commercial games are often MUCH HARDER to balance than TA clones in spring.
In many games sides are completely unique with different economies. In TA clones units of both sides fullfill similar roles and economic model is exactly same.
2) BA is played most because its played most
Is Windows XP really that much better than modern Linux systems?
It's all just down to current popularity. Until latest week I played much more BA than CA simply becuse BA is more popular and it was easier to get a game. Most people dont even want to try other mod or wait an hour in new game.
Hopefully that has now changed and I can play CA more..
The transition from AA to BA wasnt instant either, it took over 3 weeks. It involved massive #main spam and AA was broken at that time, while BA is well playable atm.
You can read more in this fun article about spring delusion http://www.darkstars.co.uk/2007/the-spr ... on-part-1/
Licho, commercial games are harder to get balanced side vs side but TA mods are harder to balance unit vs unit because Cavedog left us with a crapload of units without considering their roles much and it's very hard to deal with that many units without having some be better than others (in a sense that means "why build A when you can build B"). Basically it's very hard to balance something when you can't even say what the desired balance IS and I think TA is almost one of those cases where it's faster to throw everything away rather than balance it. I mean it took what, ten years to get TA balanced? I bet it would have been faster with a restart, even if it just meant creating an empty directory and adding units as you find a need for them.
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KingRaptor
- Zero-K Developer
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On a side note tangential to the discussion.
Either someone was doin' it wrong, or there were snipers and other stuff, maybe even a dgun.
I just tested: on their own, three microed DDMs with LOS and 9 nanotowers/DDM can't kill three krogs. Hell, six such DDMs have trouble with it.Otherside wrote:3 ddms stopping 3 krogs
Either someone was doin' it wrong, or there were snipers and other stuff, maybe even a dgun.
+1 much of the work was already done by cavedog, then uberhack, then caydr, and finally noize and day. All that is being done now is fine tuning. As I say again and again, it is this fine tuning that the best players are best at.KDR_11k wrote:Licho, commercial games are harder to get balanced side vs side but TA mods are harder to balance unit vs unit because Cavedog left us with a crapload of units without considering their roles much and it's very hard to deal with that many units without having some be better than others (in a sense that means "why build A when you can build B"). Basically it's very hard to balance something when you can't even say what the desired balance IS and I think TA is almost one of those cases where it's faster to throw everything away rather than balance it. I mean it took what, ten years to get TA balanced? I bet it would have been faster with a restart, even if it just meant creating an empty directory and adding units as you find a need for them.
Windows is a whole lot easier to use, and for most people, that makes it a better operating system. Linux can be more powerful if used correctly, but most people don't have time to learn how to use it. I'm not sure how that relates to the current discussion though.Licho wrote:Is Windows XP really that much better than modern Linux systems?
I'm well aware of the spamming that got BA played, as I was doing a lot of it in the American timezones.Licho wrote: The transition from AA to BA wasnt instant either, it took over 3 weeks. It involved massive #main spam and AA was broken at that time, while BA is well playable atm.
First off Tombom.. you cant Achieve perfect anything.. because we live in an imperfect world..
Secondly.. Did I Say PERFECT.. No I said Balanced.. which you yourself just stated is true.. EE is balanced.. there are no glaring imbalances in it..
So Again it continues to prove its own point..
You do not need to be the best player to achieve balance, nor does achieveing balance mean said game is now awesome... for example.. right now I could createa game more balanced than BA, EE, CA, or any other current mod.. it would have 1 unit, period.. perfect balance, everyone has 1 of the exact same unit.. would this be a good mod.. Well I dont think so.. but it would be excellently balanced..
You follow what im saying here..
(also FYI tombom, just cause you hate me and EE doesnt mean you have to make posts about it..)
Secondly.. Did I Say PERFECT.. No I said Balanced.. which you yourself just stated is true.. EE is balanced.. there are no glaring imbalances in it..
So Again it continues to prove its own point..
You do not need to be the best player to achieve balance, nor does achieveing balance mean said game is now awesome... for example.. right now I could createa game more balanced than BA, EE, CA, or any other current mod.. it would have 1 unit, period.. perfect balance, everyone has 1 of the exact same unit.. would this be a good mod.. Well I dont think so.. but it would be excellently balanced..
You follow what im saying here..
(also FYI tombom, just cause you hate me and EE doesnt mean you have to make posts about it..)
But is it fun? Do people want to play it? Maybe those would be worthwhile things to work on, rather than arguing in this thread.Fanger wrote:EE is balanced.. there are no glaring imbalances in it..
Also I doubt anyone "hates" EE, they may not have any desire to play it, and may find people associated with it irritating (though you could say that about BA too
).
TA as a whole is hard to balance it has only 2 factions but with so many variables and terrain determining many factor the balance problem escalates even more..
The problem is some people expect it to be like most rts were u pick a few good units and ultimately dominate the game or rush or sumthing and hence some of the unitd become useless..
I think if BA nerf Sumo and the other needed nerf's there might be a small backlash from incompetent players whos brain cant process that u need to use more than 1 type of unit to win its a shame that there r a ton of units in game and in the tier 1 phase u only see flash/gator maybe some light arty in tier 2 u only see bulldogs golis and sumos
Its hard to make everything viable but i thought that units were there to be used and that a balanced force overcomes all ?
obviously not the case people want a simple one unit i win button
hence ive retired from BA totally so wat if i get less games i dont enjoy the game and the fact they r played on DSD makes me wanna play lesss
and why do i like CA better (this maybe offtopic) it still needs it balance but every unit is viable in some way sumthing which BA Dusnt do in CA i have used every unit and to win i usually have a mix of 4-5 units in my offensive force which is way more than the 2 u have in BA Ur tanking-instawin units with some AA backup just incase..
and tbh most of the units in BA r fluff and might aswell be removed
Core tier 2 kbot lab shud be : Adv Con, Freaker , Sumo , Manticore every1 seems to ignore the others
Arm tier 2 Kbot Lab : Adv Con , Fark , Sharpshooter, Anti Air thing
The problem is some people expect it to be like most rts were u pick a few good units and ultimately dominate the game or rush or sumthing and hence some of the unitd become useless..
I think if BA nerf Sumo and the other needed nerf's there might be a small backlash from incompetent players whos brain cant process that u need to use more than 1 type of unit to win its a shame that there r a ton of units in game and in the tier 1 phase u only see flash/gator maybe some light arty in tier 2 u only see bulldogs golis and sumos
Its hard to make everything viable but i thought that units were there to be used and that a balanced force overcomes all ?
obviously not the case people want a simple one unit i win button
hence ive retired from BA totally so wat if i get less games i dont enjoy the game and the fact they r played on DSD makes me wanna play lesss
and why do i like CA better (this maybe offtopic) it still needs it balance but every unit is viable in some way sumthing which BA Dusnt do in CA i have used every unit and to win i usually have a mix of 4-5 units in my offensive force which is way more than the 2 u have in BA Ur tanking-instawin units with some AA backup just incase..
and tbh most of the units in BA r fluff and might aswell be removed
Core tier 2 kbot lab shud be : Adv Con, Freaker , Sumo , Manticore every1 seems to ignore the others
Arm tier 2 Kbot Lab : Adv Con , Fark , Sharpshooter, Anti Air thing
wanna 1v1 me in CA while i spam flash and you can try our "intelligent counter" and "real strategy" gameplay?
like tombom or someone said, some people enjoy having flaws in the game they can polish themselves.
like tombom or someone said, some people enjoy having flaws in the game they can polish themselves.
stop spewing shit from your mouth.I think if BA nerf Sumo and the other needed nerf's there might be a small backlash from incompetent players whos brain cant process that u need to use more than 1 type of unit to win its a shame that there r a ton of units in game and in the tier 1 phase u only see flash/gator maybe some light arty in tier 2 u only see bulldogs golis and sumos
