RIP BA - Page 3

RIP BA

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14605
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: RIP BA

Post by Forboding Angel » 21 Apr 2019, 01:46

What? I have to update my own game??? I am *shocked* I tell you! Positively *flabbergasted*!

:mrgreen:
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Google_Frog
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Re: RIP BA

Post by Google_Frog » 25 Apr 2019, 10:16

very_bad_soldier wrote:
20 Apr 2019, 10:39
Lots of people here seem to live under the impression that every _player_ here automatically also is a spring game developer or can become one within 15 minutes. This is not the case.
Do you contribute to every open source project you are a user of? Do you test nightly builds and give feedback of all open source projects you are a user of? I think it is up to everyone himself to decide what to do in his free time for no money and where to contribute.

Also, you are strongly refusing that players demand anything from the devs as this is a free project they do in their free time. Ok, but in my opinion you should not be demanding anything from other people back as well then (play testing, developing...).
I agree, but not in a way that makes me substantially disagree with the engine devs. There are BA players who don't have the time or competence to fix BA. That isn't to say that the engine devs are wrong, but saying "fix BA" isn't useful (and the worst offenders aren't engine devs). Someone who sees themselves as a terminal-end user is just going to get disgruntled when told to make their own game (in any sense).

The engine devs are talking to players as if they are game devs. The players are talking to engine devs as if they are game devs. No real game dev for BA exists here, as far as I can tell.
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Mando
Posts: 16
Joined: 10 Apr 2019, 14:47

Re: RIP BA

Post by Mando » 25 Apr 2019, 11:29

Google_Frog wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 10:16
No real game dev for BA exists here, as far as I can tell.
There are still the old abusive one around tho.
And the same abusive forum/lobby admins with no balls to reply where is needed (ex. moddev channel and such).

So i would say that situation is the same.
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Jools
XTA Developer
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Re: RIP BA

Post by Jools » 25 Apr 2019, 18:31

Forboding Angel wrote:
21 Apr 2019, 01:46
Positively *flabbergasted*!
It warms the heart of an old man to return to this social outlet and have exposure to that word. I forgot it existed.
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RickHustle
Posts: 44
Joined: 13 Sep 2012, 14:40

Re: RIP BA

Post by RickHustle » 29 Apr 2019, 17:03

If someone thinks that Spring 104 + last version of BA is ready to use please read this topic: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=39438
I'm trying to use it but i cannot.
I would be grateful if any of the developers will explain how to use.
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Flash
Posts: 32
Joined: 12 Dec 2010, 18:03

Re: RIP BA

Post by Flash » 01 May 2019, 22:31

Now we have 2 Lobbies with less players combined.
5 Mods that want to be "like ba9" (Total Obliteration, BA10, Phoenix Annihilation, BAR, Mando Annihilation)
In consequence its nearly impossible to get a game started.
From a developer perspective that may look like progress. For me as a player its just frustrating
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MasterBel
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Re: RIP BA

Post by MasterBel » 01 May 2019, 23:17

Flash wrote:
01 May 2019, 22:31
From a developer perspective that may look like progress. For me as a player its just frustrating
No! The devs don't think it's progress, they're probably just as frustrated as you! (Ignore Forb in this please, because I know you'll try to argue that he does think it's progress. But he's not the one who made the decision so please keep forb out of this) They didn't want you to stop being able to play, or ruin your fun. They just wanted you to update BA to run on Spring 104! And instead y'all went and set up a whole new server, didn't you see how counterproductive you were being? Creating divisions and expecting the community to remain intact?

You guys are trying so hard to hold onto what you used to have, that even when they take it away you can't see that you could have better.

You know how to make this never happen again? Have enough respect for the devs, that even if you don't like their decisions, cooperate with them. Don't let yourself get offended and upset, then you stop thinking straight. If you respect them, they'll start to respect you, and then they'll start to listen to you.

And just saying… getting upset at someone for doing something you don't like is a really good way to make them keep doing it. As soon as it has a reaction, it becomes worth it. (Except for the people who really don't like upsetting people, but still you hurt trust). As I told Mando a long time ago, I tell him again, every time you insult someone you're shooting yourself in the foot.

And devs, you probably get this but I know some of you don't: if you ever want to be reconciled to those players that hate you the most, you gotta learn to forgive. If you're going to refuse to reconcile with them, they're probably not even going to try. Mando tried once, and I'm pretty sure this whole situation would have been avoided if he was given a second chance. He even gave not insulting people a go. But then people held onto the past, and this happened. Yeah, it's not the only thing that created it (a tonne of bad behaviour on many peoples' parts did) but it contributed. Forgiving him would have been a step in the right direction.

Also, I'm sure that there's a message in here about paying attention to the minority of the community… and maybe some argument that I could pull that you should definitely invest the work to get Mac working again… but don't take it seriously, you devs have the entire ZK community to worry about too, so I rest my case. Ofc, if it was super important to me, I'd just invest more time into learning how to do it myself…
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Flash
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010, 18:03

Re: RIP BA

Post by Flash » 02 May 2019, 00:18

MasterBel wrote:
01 May 2019, 23:17
Flash wrote:
01 May 2019, 22:31
From a developer perspective that may look like progress. For me as a player its just frustrating
No! The devs don't think it's progress, they're probably just as frustrated as you! (Ignore Forb in this please, because I know you'll try to argue that he does think it's progress. But he's not the one who made the decision so please keep forb out of this) They didn't want you to stop being able to play, or ruin your fun. They just wanted you to update BA to run on Spring 104! And instead y'all went and set up a whole new server, didn't you see how counterproductive you were being? Creating divisions and expecting the community to remain intact?

Im open to play ba10 on official lobby since first day of ban but since its empty thats not an option. I cant force people to like ba10. I just want to play the game i played for the last 10 years. How did i create division by doing that? Its just the ban that created that division.

Also i dont like Mando now being blamed for "creating division" giving ba players the only option to play ba9. After it was said to us numerous times "just open your own lobby and leave us alone". Now Mandos Lobby has like 10 ba games a day (sadly often just small games) but he still wants people to be able to come back to official lobby. But im pretty sure without an at least temporary unban of ba9 that will not happen any time soon.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Re: RIP BA

Post by Forboding Angel » 02 May 2019, 00:34

Well since I was brought up... As far as ba9 is concerned, I don't think there will ever be progress. Not really. BAR is already showing signs of greatness and has a lot of impetus behind it. So BAR is progressing very quickly

Basically it comes down to this simple fact... The spring development community is simply too small to allow for stagnation. If stagnation is allowed, the development community around spring dies.
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Mando
Posts: 16
Joined: 10 Apr 2019, 14:47

Re: RIP BA

Post by Mando » 03 May 2019, 14:08

Ye and in the meantime check this out.
For the record: this is the same guy that was teaching everyone that BA = TA and that they should ban big matches so that the people will play in more rooms at the same time xD
And of course no reply to him from Floris, Triton, Bluestone, etc... (The brave and unbiased admins)

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=39473&p=590966#p590966
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PtaQ
Posts: 158
Joined: 15 Sep 2009, 10:40

Re: RIP BA

Post by PtaQ » 03 May 2019, 17:05

Mando stop your vendetta on random ppl and inactive admins.

'Teaching everyone' - he once said BA=TA in an asking context. It is laughable ofc and I admit I laughed too but well, dont bend the reality. It was funny for one day.

No ofense intended, Im just suggesting you to make better use of your time, maybye improve your hosts setup etc :) This is pretty pointless.

On the other page, I would like to ask ppl on moddev to not harm whats left of BA with trying to convert ppl to their games etc. I can imagine what impression BA community made on you, but bare in mind that Mando is not the whole community.

Peace and love.
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MasterBel
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Joined: 18 Mar 2018, 07:48

Re: RIP BA

Post by MasterBel » 09 May 2019, 12:14

Flash wrote:
02 May 2019, 00:18
Im open to play ba10 on official lobby since first day of ban but since its empty thats not an option. I cant force people to like ba10. I just want to play the game i played for the last 10 years. How did i create division by doing that? Its just the ban that created that division.
The division happened a long time ago (apologies for not making it clear I meant divisions in general), and no one party was responsible. But everyone had the possibility to stand up and say No, but so many people just stayed silent. There was so little attempt to hold the community together that trying created a division in itself, between the people who tried and the people who didn't want to try. Oh, the irony.

And another note… singling one's self out as innocent doesn't help – in a way it's creating its own divisions but that's a technicality we probably should ignore. Just… take the picture, not the details. The point is we have to work together and support each other. That was the point of the move to 104. That was the point of the people protesting about BA being banned … except that there was a better option that could have worked that no one saw quite worth it.

Basically, remember what's important for you. If that's getting everything you can get for as little as you can give, congratulations, you found the perfect free game to do so. Just don't get so caught up in defending your right to suck the life out of community that you actually put more work in than it's worth – or work in the wrong place, so that your spring dries up early.

… pun fully intended.
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Sabutai
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Re: RIP BA

Post by Sabutai » 10 May 2019, 11:50

MasterBel wrote:
09 May 2019, 12:14
The division happened a long time ago (apologies for not making it clear I meant divisions in general), and no one party was responsible. But everyone had the possibility to stand up and say No, but so many people just stayed silent. There was so little attempt to hold the community together that trying created a division in itself, between the people who tried and the people who didn't want to try. Oh, the irony.
People stood up. Instead of having a proper discussion they have been ridiculed up until this very thread.
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Megatron
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Joined: 14 Feb 2018, 00:42

Re: RIP BA

Post by Megatron » 10 May 2019, 19:18

Congratulations to whoever implemented the BA Ban, oh excuse me i mean the "engine 103 lobby restrictions that have nothing to do with BA." There hasn't been a single game of BA in a month now. Good work killing one of the most popular Spring mods for completely selfish reasons. I won't be forced to play TechA instead of BA to indulge some Engine devs desire for me to test their new versions. Until BA is back on Springlobby i'll be playing ZeroK where they have their own lobby and upgrade to the latest engine when they're damn well ready, not forced to by some devs who don't believe in the principles of open source.
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MasterBel
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Joined: 18 Mar 2018, 07:48

Re: RIP BA

Post by MasterBel » 11 May 2019, 00:50

Sabutai wrote:
10 May 2019, 11:50
People stood up. Instead of having a proper discussion they have been ridiculed up until this very thread.
Yes, I know, and it drove me mad. If you don't get it: I'm asking everyone to stand up and everyone to stop ridiculing and everyone to put their heads together and find a decent solution for everyone.
Megatron wrote:Congratulations … completely selfish reasons … source.
All you've done is a) misrepresenting the people who made the decision, b) cramming a heap of insults into a post, while, I'll say this is an impressive achievement, not actually being directly insulting. But it would do you a massive favour to recognise what's been given to you here also. A brand new shiny engine which runs faster and with better graphics. Have you not seen what ivand's been doing in the space of graphics? Go check it out, it's amazing! It has better pathing – how many times have your units got stuck on random maps? This doesn't have to happen anymore. Transport bugs fixed? Check. They have done so much for you, seize it with two hands and grab it before it runs away! In fact, they're trying to make you upgrade so that you can keep reaping these benefits for years into the future. Currently they're also in the process of moving to OpenGL 5, which brings a tonne of improvements!

Also, think of it this way: BA is already on Springlobby. BA always was on Springlobby. Now there's a virtually identical to 9.46 called Phoenix Annihilation that even works on Spring104. There's been work already done there for you voluntarily by Bluestone so please, please, use what they've been giving you!

Not everyone is out there to get you, Megatron. Don't assume they have because you haven't been given exactly what you want right now.

Because, and I'm being serious, that makes you just as completely selfish as the Engine devs.

Oh and by the way: I don't care about the principles of open source, and neither should you. Instead you should recognise that all humans have at the very least potential value, and therefore things like respect, patience etc. are valuable, because they're investments. Ofc this leads to something at least very similar to the principles of open source, but get this, open source isn't the point. America is built on treating people like you have value, and it creates what you believe to either have been or to be one of the greatest nations in the world. Don't miss the significance of it. Please.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: RIP BA

Post by Forboding Angel » 11 May 2019, 11:01

So they still haven't figured out that PA is BA but 104 compatible? In Silentwings' thread I almost made a snide comment when he fixed it, but then I decided to not spill the beans and see how long they kept shooting themselves in the foot. The facepalmyness of this is real.

Fwiw, there is a difference between being selfish, and being practical. For that matter, what kind of choosingbegger are you to decide that the engine devs owe you something. They don't owe you squat. All you have ever done is cause problems for them. What with your shitty attitude and behavior in the lobby, to blaming them for every single little problem you have. Grow up.
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Megatron
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Re: RIP BA

Post by Megatron » 11 May 2019, 17:25

I'm not sure why all this anger and hate is being directed at me for simply expressing my opinion and stating my observations. My impression is that Forboding Angel is really bitter about something and misdirecting his anger at members of the BA community.

Most players don't care about graphics, they care about gameplay. I find it disgusting how people are saying I should "appreciate all the hard work they've done "for me." " You can talk all you want about being a graphics whore, or fixing the one minor glitch that wasn't a big deal (transport glitch). You can accuse me of being misleading, but just I call it how I see it.

I am not a "BA9 loyalist." For the record I am fine with newer versions of BA10, and I am glad someone is developing the spring engine; I would prefer people just play that on springlobby. My point is I don't support banning engine versions from the lobby and attempts to control/coerce the userbase in this way. I.e. putting restrictions of 4v4 on 103 which we all know only effects BA, not other mods. And people can pretend this wasn't about banning BA, but regardless of the intent (we all know what it was) the results are not debatable. The result is BA is dead, and nobody can contest that.

To conclude, there were daily 8v8's for months/years on end and now there is nothing, a few 4v4's on TechA if we are lucky. I am a scientist, I measure outcomes by the results I observe, and the outcome of the 103 ban was BA got killed; its just an indisputable fact.
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Ares
Posts: 315
Joined: 19 Mar 2011, 13:43

Re: RIP BA

Post by Ares » 11 May 2019, 21:55

MasterBel wrote:
11 May 2019, 00:50
Transport bugs fixed? Check.
Transport bug was never caused by engine, it was caused by BA10 devs who enabled air collision and secondly they changed some weird settings with gravity. I had no issue solving 90% the bugs in 9.46 in under 2 days, without totally ruining sea or balance. So saying it was particularly hard is not true and how it managed to take BA10 3 years to make it so much worse is a mystery - until March, 9.46 had 8v8s daily. PA is unrelated scapegoat to BA10s countless problems all I see BA10 discord admin MrBel singing BA10s praises, which is funny because he can't even play it on his Mac anyway. Like Triton said on BA10 discord "players got what they deserved". Totally agree with Megatron.
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RickHustle
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Re: RIP BA

Post by RickHustle » 11 May 2019, 22:09

1)Dear developers, you did bad incompatible versions. It's the reason why even people than want to play in new BA, cannot play to it. You didn't ask yourself why now it's only one man Fabrice Fabs have linux autohosts with it? Becouse you did such way that if you sync at one miltiautohost you cannot sync with other. And you did it specialy for BA, no other mods have this issue. How did you tested this online game? At own local PC? Funny :)
It's important. Please investigate it ASAP. At this moment all is ignoring this huge problem.

2) Second problem. You did unclear numeration version of Spring. How i will know how version of Spring compatible with BA10.24? Of Phoenix 1.0.1 or Phoenix 1.0.2? You did't placed any information about it. How i will know that BA10.24 should be to compatible only with maintenance version? Not stable, not testers and exactly maintenance? Why stable version of Spring 104.0 incompatible with stable version of BA? It will make crazy everyone who will try to use that you developed.
Please do adequate version numbering without "maintenance" or 104.0.1-969-fuckingass. Return old numeration 105.0, 106.0 etc wich will be compatible with stable versions of mods.

3) For you Forboding Angel: A lot of bugs still present in new BA. I didn't see the difference in bugs compered with old 9.46 version. Units is still stucking, PA sometimes crashes. Landing bombers do places prohibited for construction (yellow spots). Old bugs and new graphics effects it's right that all need from new version of game and engine. Exactly this will do game playable :)
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Re: RIP BA

Post by Forboding Angel » 11 May 2019, 23:09

RickHustle wrote:
11 May 2019, 22:09
1)Dear developers, you did bad incompatible versions. It's the reason why even people than want to play in new BA, cannot play to it. You didn't ask yourself why now it's only one man Fabrice Fabs have linux autohosts with it? Becouse you did such way that if you sync at one miltiautohost you cannot sync with other. And you did it specialy for BA, no other mods have this issue. How did you tested this online game? At own local PC? Funny :)
It's important. Please investigate it ASAP. At this moment all is ignoring this huge problem.
This is a problem with SPADS, not spring (if it is indeed a real issue, which I have doubts). I had linux autohosts hosting maintenance versions a while back. I switched them to windows so that I could more easily automate processes.
RickHustle wrote:
11 May 2019, 22:09
2) Second problem. You did unclear numeration version of Spring. How i will know how version of Spring compatible with BA10.24? Of Phoenix 1.0.1 or Phoenix 1.0.2? You did't placed any information about it. How i will know that BA10.24 should be to compatible only with maintenance version? Not stable, not testers and exactly maintenance? Why stable version of Spring 104.0 incompatible with stable version of BA? It will make crazy everyone who will try to use that you developed.
Please do adequate version numbering without "maintenance" or 104.0.1-969-fuckingass. Return old numeration 105.0, 106.0 etc wich will be compatible with stable versions of mods.
It is not the engine developers responsibility to make sure that a new engine version is compatible with your game, it is your responsibility to update your game to maintain compatibility with new engine versions.
RickHustle wrote:
11 May 2019, 22:09
3) For you Forboding Angel: A lot of bugs still present in new BA. I didn't see the difference in bugs compered with old 9.46 version. Units is still stucking, PA sometimes crashes. Landing bombers do places prohibited for construction (yellow spots). Old bugs and new graphics effects it's right that all need from new version of game and engine. Exactly this will do game playable :)
PA is BA 9.46 updated for 104.0. Period. That's it. Do I need to set up traffic cones and draw you a graph in order for this to be understood?

Specifically @rickhustle:
Your post indicates that you do not understand the various development groups within spring.

Engine Developers = Works on the engine
Gamedevs = Works on the games (In your case, BA, however, I don't know if you guys have anyone left that is willing to work on BA after the way you have treated BA gamedevs and gamedevs of other games)
Lobbydevs = Works on the lobby
SPADS Developer = Bibim. Only works on SPADS afaik.
AI Devs = Usually only work on their AIs, sometimes work on games too though.


Moreover, your post indicates a level of disrespect to the point to where even if I were an engine dev and somehow could help you, I wouldn't.
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