Proposed balance changes - discuss

[Jools]

1. Annihilator and Doomsday Machine explosion radiuses:

Annihilator: areaofeffect=180, damage=800
DDM: areaofeffect=120, default=500

Maybe these could be larger? Considering these are energy weapons and that:
Bertha and Intimidator: 1400, 360. Estore: 900,150

Discuss...

2. Arm Crabe and Core Garpike torpedos

These T1 amphibious tanks have a torpedo as a second weapon. Does that make them op? The torpedo has aoe = 32 and deals 100 damage.

Anything else?

[Hermuld]

Amphibtanks torpedo range >> t1 ships torpedo range,
might be a problem? But it's a minor thingy, would have effect on 1% of the games or so. Same thing with Anni/DDM explosion, not really a big deal.

T1 play is missile lines only, sometimes pw/ak and very seldom hammers/thuds. You never see rockos/storms. Maybe a small buff to rockos/storms units to make them more useful. More dmg and/or speed maybe. That would affect 90% of games. More different ways to win/play -> better game?

[scifi]

Amphibtanks torpedo range >> t1 ships torpedo range

But it's a minor thingy

Range reduction imo would be totaly fine.

T1 play is missile lines only

I do agree that storms/rockos are kinda sucky - i have no idea what nerf/change made them be less effective. Range/damage increase.

Tier 2 ships for their cost arent effective enough compared to hovers.
- Tier 2 ship killer range and damage isnt enough.
- Tier 2 ship cruisers are way to slow and get surrounded easily.

- Tier 1 kamikase sub lab doesnt provide a good start, some ships or defences provide too mutch LOS on kamis. Also torpedo launchers have an insane range and sonar.

Same thing with Anni/DDM explosion, not really a big deal.

I havent seen mutch issues with this, however what would be the proposed change?

[Jools]

- Tier 1 kamikase sub lab doesnt provide a good start, some ships or defences provide too mutch LOS on kamis. Also torpedo launchers have an insane range and sonar.

Yes, and t2 torp.launchers only have a bit more range than t1.

Same thing with Anni/DDM explosion, not really a big deal.

I havent seen mutch issues with this, however what would be the proposed change?[/quote]
The change would be to make the explosions a bit bigger, these are after all energy weapons, and we all know that energy explodes when destroyed :)

[raaar]

discussion, discussion, discussion

"random" changes

- remove speed bonus for underwater amphibious units (they are relatively slow on land, but become ridiculously fast underwater).
- remove the depth charge from t1 amphibious tanks
- make t1 amphibious tanks faster (like 2.0, not 1.45)
- make t1 amphibious tanks a bit cheaper and have a bit less hitpoints to compensate

- make all depth charges track their targets
- add some tier2 ship, or change the ship killer's weapons into having shorter range but higher dps (so there is a non-artillery non-anti-air ship that can compete in cost effectiveness in direct combat against swarm of light units/hovercraft without becoming ridiculously OP otherwise)

- decrease the range of subs and torpedo launchers and buff their dps to compensate

- increase range of thud/hammer and rocko/storm by 50

- maybe decrease rocko/storm cost and HP slightly and increase cost of jethro/crasher

- increase movement speed of all commanders by 0.1
- increase the range of the commander's laser to 450

- decrease damage per shot of arm annhililator by 33% (maybe keep high damage against high hp units)

- decrease damage per shot of arm sniper to 1500

- increase the dps of llt's by 25%

- remove specific damage reduction on non anti air weapons against aircraft

- 200 dps high energy (green lasers) should cost about 100E/s to fire, not 200.

- keep the spider factory and the tortoises, but nerf some of them(artillery, sniper) and buff others and tweak their models (sniper ones should be taller, also could use some improvement) and animations (increase speed of move animation for some of them to match actual speed).

- turtles could float/swim instead of moving underwater, maybe

- remove energy cost of firing most non "supercharged" plasma cannons (those that deal 250-400 dmg per shot : toaster, luger, guardians, cruisers, etc.)
- make t2 artillery units more accurate and adjust costs to compensate
- buff core mobile artillery somehow

- reduce the "free" metal per second from advanced construction units to 0.2 from 0.5

- increase the metal cost of decoy commanders by 250

- increase the HP and DPS of doomsday machine and lower range of purple laser and cost

- increase the metal cost of berthas/intimidators by at least 50%

this isn't balance related, but fix underwater explosions, they aren't showing up in game (the ceg may need "water=1" and "underwater=1")

[knorke]

Provide some replays, or tests why these ideas should be worth looking at.
At least give any sort of reason please.
Especially when it is about important units like LLT:

- increase the dps of llt's by 25%

I will not take part in "discussion" that is just random ideas without any reasoing. And I hope nobody will mess with balance based on such arbitrary proposals.

[raaar]

should have left out the discussion part of my post. It started as "discussion, discussion, discussion" to tease people into actually discussing these issues. But then i added the "random suggestions"...

i've been discussing balance stuff with people about games for years, and i'm fed up with it.

play the game, look at the mod files, unit and weapon stats, how much "bang" for the "buck", and think.

people usually stop attacking when the "borders" become defined and after that it is an economy race. The timing and initiative of the player, and how it conforms to an economy size before trying to do something (which may flop) has such a huge impact on the outcome that the actual cost-effectiveness of the units is overlooked. spammed underpowered units can still win games, and mixes with overpowered units may fail due to the sheer economy size difference (one group of players managed to spam significantly more cons/fusions/metal makers than the opponent).

[Jools]

That's a long list. If we would make all those changes all at once it would be a different game almost. But I invited discussion and we have to start somewhere. Discussion is good.

[Hermuld]

- increase the dps of llt's by 25%

...

[Hermuld]

- increase the dps of llt's by 25%

I'd say decrease by 25%. To revert earlier llt buff, it was given +10% damage per shot and +10% firespeed. Would make early game more interesting.

[raaar]

- increase the dps of llt's by 25%

I'd say decrease by 25%. To revert earlier llt buff, it was given +10% damage per shot and +10% firespeed. Would make early game more interesting.

Still, 122 dmg/sec is not a lot. Two flashes deal as much dps and cost less to put into perspective.

Can you elaborate on why it would make early game more interesting?

reasoning behind proposed changes to commanders, defenses and t1 rocket and artillery kbots:
- rocket and artillery kbots are a bit underpowered for general use. It's safer to use missile kbots as artillery and infantry kbots as assault units most of the time.
- Currently both commanders and early defense perform well (sort of) because they either face the low dps missile kbots or the assault kbots that fail to shoot through dragons teeth and have very short range.

- buffing the med range t1 units to make them more viable in many situations will put more pressure on commanders and the defensive units used to hold back t1 agressors (llt,hlt, toaster), that's why they would need a buff

commander's slow speed makes them sitting ducks later in the game

should a heavy laser tower really need 9-10 solars to fire constantly?

[pnöpel]

Thesis: decrease energy cost of greater mex
Argument:
a) so decided the ba people
b) destroying fusions should Not eradicate the chance of rebuilding the generators themself (in case of empty storages)

[raaar]

cof

[pintle]

I know I haven't played in many months, but just stopped by to check the forums and... nerfing t1 amphibs?

Has anyone won a game using them? They were very underpowered for cost last time I used them. The flexibility of the unit was "costed" such that they lost hands down to equal cost of either sea or land. Do they really need a nerf?

edit: also has rocko/storm balance changed somehow? They were really good, just need good micro (which AA spam does not). Buffing range will make them godly vs commanders.

[Jools]

edit: also has rocko/storm balance changed somehow? They were really good, just need good micro (which AA spam does not). Buffing range will make them godly vs commanders.

No, it has not chnaged at all. T1 balance is not changed very often due to it being such a fundamental part of the game (jeffy/weasel are exceptions).

Nobody would want to buff range. What was adjusted in last version was area of effect of their weapons, that is the explosion. That way they deal splash damage to things behind dt:s. It doesn't seem to affect really anything else. IIRC this kind of splash damage was how things worked somtimes before version 9.6 as well, but I don't really know the details as the first version to be present in svn is 9.66.

[raaar]

i spent the past 45 min looking for an animated gif that accurately describes the situation without being rude.

i gave up...

[Jools]

What situation? Who are you replying to?

[raaar]

What situation? Who are you replying to?

gimmicky and somewhat broken xta balance maintainers are afraid to touch (yes, you too)

requiring replays that clearly show problems is unreasonable as most games start (and some end) with t1 missile unit spam with some peewee/ak or the vehicle equivalents mixed in. You even watched many of them and that hasn't changed.

[pintle]

What situation? Who are you replying to?

gimmicky and somewhat broken xta balance maintainers are afraid to touch (yes, you too)

requiring replays that clearly show problems is unreasonable as most games start (and some end) with t1 missile unit spam with some peewee/ak or the vehicle equivalents mixed in. You even watched many of them and that hasn't changed.

No disrespect intended, but that is nothing like how top-level 1v1 in XTA played out when I last played.

AA spam works well in a low micro game, but it has multiple counters, all of which require quite heavy micro, but that has always been the defining aspect of XTA compared to other *A games.

If somebody is left to mass without adequate pressure and raiding, an AA line can be hard to attack. I would have to ask, however, what the opponent has been doing during the time the enemy has been able to achieve critical mass of AA? In a larger team game context, where pressure is harder to maintain, stumpeh murders AA, or just ignores it and kills the com with indirect fire. That is of course disregarding the numerous other options available.

You could make the argument of balancing for accessibility to lower skill players I guess, but I would honestly respond, patronising as it sounds, with "go play BA".

Popup and HLT are not great counters to t1 units in a 1v1 context. If you are not probing and capitalising on the enemies investment of resources and buildpower in getting the expensive static defence up, then, basically, you got outplayed. See the nanoframe of a popup cannon? Reclaim your t1 lab and rush a jammer and a couple of Merl/Domi/Diplo. Again in a team game this dynamic changes a bit, but the people attacking the porker have many more options available to them.

[raaar]

What situation? Who are you replying to?

gimmicky and somewhat broken xta balance maintainers are afraid to touch (yes, you too)

requiring replays that clearly show problems is unreasonable as most games start (and some end) with t1 missile unit spam with some peewee/ak or the vehicle equivalents mixed in. You even watched many of them and that hasn't changed.

No disrespect intended, but that is nothing like how top-level 1v1 in XTA played out when I last played.

AA spam works well in a low micro game, but it has multiple counters, all of which require quite heavy micro, but that has always been the defining aspect of XTA compared to other *A games.

If somebody is left to mass without adequate pressure and raiding, an AA line can be hard to attack. I would have to ask, however, what the opponent has been doing during the time the enemy has been able to achieve critical mass of AA? In a larger team game context, where pressure is harder to maintain, stumpeh murders AA, or just ignores it and kills the com with indirect fire. That is of course disregarding the numerous other options available.

You could make the argument of balancing for accessibility to lower skill players I guess, but I would honestly respond, patronising as it sounds, with "go play BA".

Popup and HLT are not great counters to t1 units in a 1v1 context. If you are not probing and capitalising on the enemies investment of resources and buildpower in getting the expensive static defence up, then, basically, you got outplayed. See the nanoframe of a popup cannon? Reclaim your t1 lab and rush a jammer and a couple of Merl/Domi/Diplo. Again in a team game this dynamic changes a bit, but the people attacking the porker have many more options available to them.

whatever

an overpowered "swiss knife" will still underperform if you use it as a "hammer".

buffing t1 artillery and rocket kbots won't take away the role of either peewee/flash (better/faster raiders) or t1 missile units (longer range harassment and anti aircraft) and will lead to more satisfying XTA games. It will, however, expose the slight ineffectiveness of commanders and early defenses, which should be fixed with the other modifications mentioned earlier....

i'd look at other units too, zeus may be a bit too strong/cost, luger too ineffective due to inaccuracy, etc..