*A games, spring, legal status

[smoth]

I suspect English is his second language, considering his defense of his post.....

[KaiserJ]

raaar is asking about how users/modders could be effected the legality of current "borrowed" TA material, we're just muddying the water talking about things that could happen in the future (model remakes, mutators and the like) and different projects (ones that don't use TA stuff)

and like he says, we don't know what would happen if we tried to make a "tribute site" or contact the holders of the copyrights, because AFAIK nobody has ever done it

we're all just offering alternatives because we simply don't know

and yeah its a big rehash of a million earlier topics but lets keep it clean guys

[zwzsg]

English is my second language too. So what? That's not an excuse to miss the point about the difference between paying hommage, being inspired by, and distributing repackaged data files.

The only reason hpi view was allowed to exist was because it was a tool used for the creation of TA mod content. So the assets of OTA were being used by OTA.

TA was not meant to be modded by its playerbase. All the TA modding tools were made by third party who reverse engineered TA files. In violation of the TA license. Cavedog let it happen because they were cool guys and probably realized it wouldn't help them go at war with their playerbase, but they did not mean it to happen.

If TA was build in way that let new units be easily created and added, it was for the comfort of Cavedog and their weekly units release. Not for third parties to make units.

The only tools Cavedog released was one map editor, and the unit viewer.

[I initially misread your post, I saw "created" when you just said "allowed to exist]

the copyright violation may include aspects of the file formats used in ota, namely 3do and cob

I am pretty sure it's okay to look at proprietary file formats to support them in your own free application.

Well, unless that's one of those formats with silly locks like HDCP HDMI or locked PDF or locked e-books or locked songs or ... But that's a more recent trend. And an idiotic, despicable one that goes against the very nature of digital data..., but that is another story.

[raaar]

raaar is asking about how users/modders could be effected the legality of current "borrowed" TA material, we're just muddying the water talking about things that could happen in the future (model remakes, mutators and the like) and different projects (ones that don't use TA stuff)

and like he says, we don't know what would happen if we tried to make a "tribute site" or contact the holders of the copyrights, because AFAIK nobody has ever done it

we're all just offering alternatives because we simply don't know

and yeah its a big rehash of a million earlier topics but lets keep it clean guys

+1

it seems instead of focusing on the suggestion part and other questions i mixed in, people kept twisting my opinion on what should be acceptable, and then whining at it

- should we try something like this ?....
(drawing Atari's attention to spring and *A mods/sites might backfire)

- should we try to get *A mods to come to spring at all?

- are Spring devs going to discontinue TA legacy formats like cob and 3do?

[zwzsg]

- should we try something like this ?....
(drawing Atari's attention to spring and *A mods/sites might backfire)

Is there a Greater Spring Authority to grant you authorisation to do so?

- should we try to get *A mods to come to spring at all?

That is not clear. I'm used to calling *A mods the Spring mods that derive from Total Annihilation content, such as XTA, BA, NOTA, MA, etc... These are already Spring mods, so then your question makes no sense.

If you talk about TA mods, then they know about Spring, and generally don't like it (too different from TA or something).

- are Spring devs going to discontinue TA legacy formats like cob and 3do?

I surely pray that not!

I'm still afraid they'll do, not for technical reasons but out of self-leniency. First they implement a new format (Lua Unit Script and s3o), then they'll slowly let the old code base rot, when told about bug they'll tell to use the new format claiming it to be much better anyway, and then once the cob/3do support is sufficiently rotten, they'll cull out with the excuse of making the code cleaner. Or hopefully I'm just having bad dreams and dev will keep on understanding the positiveness of retro-compatibility, lower entry point for old TA modders, and multiple file format support.

[Funkencool]

I do agree it's not a terrible idea for someone to actually ask atari, their reply would be the only reply needed.

Funken, this is why we have mutators. Once bar is done.. Xta could make a mutator. Bam, done.

forgot they're called mutators, but yea thats what I mean. They don't get used enough. It would be cooler to have mutators or "mods" then a crapload of forks.

[zwzsg]

The trouble with mutators is when the mod/game they draw from update. And mods/games have to be updated all the time in Spring ecosystem.

[smoth]

they don't get updated THAT often.

[PicassoCT]

This is starting to get some sort of abstract lawyer discussion, very soon someone shall appear citating ".. a precedent case from 1742, when a horse carriage, drove off with a load of bullshit, which the owner marked as theft (+cleaning cost) but which was after some courtcombustion was decided to be a overarchivement of delivery and thus, if you mark yourself as a timedelayed re-retailer of cavedogs TA, ataris lawyer break a cold sweat."

Of course you need over 9000 examples of TA in your cellar for that

[Forboding Angel]

- are Spring devs going to discontinue TA legacy formats like cob and 3do?[/b]

The use of the cob format does not violate the TA copyright.

Neither do s3o as it was designed from the ground up and has nothing to do with TA.

So you are trying to change some numbers and call it a mod. Typical. Watch me while I roll my eyes.

[smoth]

Pfft, I don't care whether or not someone believes me. I am just trying to get it into raaar's head that even if he gets an ok(considering the content was ripped from a game violating the EULA, unlikely) the ip could be bought by someone else and then the new holder says "no" and all the *A projects have to be shut down.

Again, time would be BETTER spent helping BAR and ZK clear the hurdle. Even though most of zk is fine there are still a few areas I find questionable(such as the core commander homage model). This is just pointless discussion, the time, effort and money spent to get the temporary ok or even attempt to would be better spent just making replacement content. End of story, that is the facts as they are.

However because much of the forum is talkers and not doers we frequently see this "lazy" option resurface over and over.

[raaar]

no engine dev answered so far.

I was afraid the devs could use the "legal" excuse to drop 3do and cob.

sometimes you need to talk before you do....especially if what you do could have influence on other people (if it backfires, it could draw Atari's attention to Spring and sites with *A mods, units, etc. in general).

Anyway, i won't insist on this...anyone else want to comment?

[smoth]

How much do you think an IP lawyer's time is worth?

Time is required to examine the spring project(which isn't *A). Did cavedog patent bos, 3do, probably not. Is it part of the TA IP? NO. What is in it for Atari to consider looking at the *A garbage? We are talking serious man hours. Why would they care about Spring? They won't.

There is no money in it for them. It would be bad business to even consider *A.

[gajop]

Anyway, i won't insist on this...anyone else want to comment?

Well if you insist!

no engine dev answered so far.

Nor should they, spring is legal, it doesn't infringe on anything. The only "problem" are old models in BA and such, and the solution is remodeling, which some people are doing for a while now.

ime would be BETTER spent helping BAR and ZK

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on this entire thread.

TA models are outdated and ugly. Why care when you can just use models from BAR?

[knorke]

in response to "what stuff in zk is still TA IP:"
The con plane has some ARM logo on its nose and looks boxxy enough to be from TA.

Also Upspring download includes all the TA textures.
(or are those remakes?)
So even if you made a mod completly from scratch, you downloaded a warez
omg all the mods made with Upspring are infected

[Cubex]

Yeah I warned about the ARM logo on the build Gunship/Plane... but everyone ignored me like a piece of rock in a abysm ¬.¬

Regarding to UpSpring, afaik they are from TA (not trust me much), but afaik 3do or s3o doesn't have texture data on their files, they rely on filenames... (not sure too), so they are not "infected" by TA texture contents, and I don't see someone suing us because of 3do having "tex1/corelogo.png" on a file

[smoth]

in response to "what stuff in zk is still TA IP:"
The con plane has some ARM logo on its nose and looks boxxy enough to be from TA.

well zk people.. get to work.

Also Upspring download includes all the TA textures.
(or are those remakes?)

this should get rectified easily.

So even if you made a mod completly from scratch, you downloaded a warez

How so?

omg all the mods made with Upspring are infected

How so?

[BaNa]

my god you people

all the art assets have been or are in the process of being remade IP free. pls end the derp, no need to have this topic here to scare away people long after the fact.

yes distributing TA IP is not technically legal, it is morally debatable, and has been debated to death already. Either it is morally wrong for you or it isnt, debate wont change this.

I think we can agree that there is an infinitesimal chance of any legal trouble coming from this, and the community is *almost* ready to cast away TA IP at the drop of a hat if need be.

[smoth]

BaNa:

Again, time would be BETTER spent helping BAR

[PicassoCT]

maybe some lawyer puts this among "Cases we could, but wont be able to do any longer thereafter" folder, and we get picked among the thousand of unlucky fanbois.. just for the hell of it.