autoskirmish

[thelawenforcer]

not sure whether this had been brought up with relation to CA/ZeroK but i thought it was worth a mention...

first of all, ZeroK seems like quite an interesting game with quite a bit of depth.

one aspect i really didnt like however was the fact that units, especially rockos and hammers would micro back and forth automatically.

lets face it, spring allows some of the easiest macro of any game out there, with the massively versatile queueing system, the repeat function, the zooming etc...

i personally feel that focus is sort of a 3rd resource. The time you are focusing on your units is time your spending not macroing up and vice versa. Balancing these tasks is hard and can be costly when you mess it up.

spring already makes microing fairly easy, with the line commands, fight commands etc, but i think that ZeroK takes things a bit too far with their implementation of the fight command.

Having units move automatically depending on what your enemy is doing feels like its taking too much away from some of the skill required to play at a high level. its all good knowing how to micro and how to macro, but you have to be able to perform all the tasks in a high pressure situation. thats what separates average from good players.

its not like im saying people need to have 400apm to play spring, infact, 50 would probably easily do, just dont reduce the amount of inputs players need to make with regards to the critical and game defining parts of the game, the skirmishes and fights...

for instance, wouldnt being better at controlling your units in skirmishes than your opponent be a valid skill differentiator? but if your both using fight commands, then these differentiators dont exist anymore.

again, dont want to tell you how to make your game or anything, but to me, this was the big standout negative point during my few games of ZeroK. otherwise its rather nice, and certainly better than BA or those derivatives with close resemblance ( wont ever come close to NOTA though, thats just in a league of its own ;P when it comes to battles at least)

[Wombat]

i agree shit like that ruins whole fun, same as initial queue widget or stuff like this... tbh most of the widgets simply ruin fun, especially when enemy got one doing stuff for him and rest of the players dont.

player should play, its not the settlers 1 kind of the rts in the end...

[Otherside]

due to the spamability of the game and most *A games in general. Most people cannot afford to micro everything mid/late.

I don't personally mind the widgets as they are available for everyone so everybody is on a even playing field. Personally doesn't ruin my enjoyment.

[luckywaldo7]

I could write a lot about it but I cba as I'm studying for a fluid dynamics test tomorrow .

The short version is, that it is part of the design fundamentals to automate the more menial mindless tasks. Skirming is probably grey area in that respect, but it is so well done that there is no reason not to use it.

Once the more menial tasks are gone, that leaves room for more complexity in the higher-level management in the game. If the game is really too easy, more complexity can be added, although there is still tons of room for the best players atm to grow.

[CarRepairer]

Anyone can add Googlefrog's autoskirm widget to BA, so it's not a ZK thing. ZK simply has it included.

The recent change that was made is that the code has been gadgetized in ZK. The only reason he did this is to allow AI bots (CAI) to benefit from the behavior code instantly without having to rewrite it.

Note that if you ever wish to disable it for your own units, you can turn it off by clicking the little light bulb in the menu.

And yes, the goal of ZK is to reduce micro so as not to distinguish who can kite faster than the other person. Every game still has a winner and loser so there will always be someone who plays better than the other.

[Johannes]

Rock paper scissors has a winner too.

[MidKnight]

If you can micro better that autoskirm's algorithm, simply disable the widget and do that. ZK tries to simplify menial tasks so that the player is free to spend his/her time on higher-order tasks, like choosing their army's unit blend and implementing fresh and creative strategies.

Autoskirm actually makes the game fairer for people who aren't as good at micro, and differentiates ZK from the rest of the genre: being able to kite well will make you a better player, but people actually have to come up with intelligent strategies, not just micro their units better in battles.

[Google_Frog]

What is this widget that most of you are talking about? It's very misleading to say disable the widget if you don't like it. If you really don't like it you would have to make a widget to toggle the AI off as it is a gadget command.

This gadget is an extension of the default fight behaviour, if units automatically walk into range why not make them try and keep at a range? Anyway there is little point arguing that it is a good or bad feature as everyone has their own preference of games they like to play. We're trying to make a game where the mechanical tasks of little mental complexity are automated to make room for more complex strategies.

But that said I do recognise that minute unit movements can be important decisions. Things like deciding whether to pursue or not and dodging missiles vs. closing distance faster. So I often take control of my units to make these kinds of choices. The AI can be more something to make sure they are not utterly stupid when idle.

[Otherside]

In a real world scenario would people stand and get shot at if they did not receive direct commands or would they at the very least try to avoid getting hit?

[Johannes]

This is a game... Not a real world scenario

[Otherside]

This is a game... Not a real world scenario

This is not rock paper scissors (maybe the balancing to an extent).

Just because no other mod has autoskirmish AI doesn't make it bad.

Unlike most other RTS's in zero-k and most *A mods you control a huge amount of units. This AI would be horrible in SC2 for example but works just fine in this scenario. And at the end of the day its still more rewarding to micro your own units.

It doesn't remove any skill from the game because a better player will have the same chance of beating a lesser player with/without the widget.

Now go back to your BA threads.

[thelawenforcer]

i find the fact that you call controlling ones army a 'menial task' rather disappointing to be honest... its only half of what a strategy game should entail.

unit blends are extremely quick and easy to setup, dont tell me that you put your units to fight, and then think "3 raiders to every rocko or 2?" for 30 seconds...

sure there is alot of automation possible in spring, and i appreciate the argument that having the same widgets on for everyone levels the playing field, but you must appreciate the slippery slope we are on here. managing all the tasks, especially army control and economic expansion are skills that both require your focus and separate the decent from good and good from amazing.

[knorke]

To me, the actual combat is one of the fun parts in an RTS. Imo autoskirmish takes that away and espicially when both players use that.
I feel more disconnected from playing against a human player when I can not tell if the actions of his units are a decision or scripted.

Look at this threads with the videos:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25141
"It's nice to have some video's that display the real power of spring (and that is the superb control over your units in my opinion)."
And that is also a big fail I think.
Often in Spring games it feels like you are not playing a game but doing some computer work. Icons, lines, markers of all sort, range circles...does that look like a game?

The pathfinder ai in starcraft 1 was supergay. Herding protoss dragoons up ramps was a superstupid clickfest.
But I think some of the gameplay mechanics in Spring are just as dull.
So much time spend on setting up ques (lol mex rebuild!), doing waypoints or toggling units stuff like hold fire/priority/whatever.
That is no fun for me.

[luckywaldo7]

You find settings waypoints dull? You might be suprised to find out that skirming with rocko's is just a lot of setting waypoints o_0.

Anyways there is still loads of action commanding to do. ZK is probably still more micro-heavy than BA, with all the abilities that units have. Jump is fairly micro-intensive, especially with groups of units; you need micro on cloaky units to prevent them from being detected (relatively large decloak radius on every unit); you need to rotate through your shield units so the least damaged ones are taking hits while the others recharge; there are those units with huge reload time (spy ~30 seconds), and thats just off the top of my head.

If all you are seeing in games is lines of rockos autoskirming each other, the people just don't quite know how to play it.

[Otherside]

manually controlling your units > letting the widget do it.

Whats so hard to get ??

If you want to win you can sink your time into individual micro. Leaving your units on their own is still bad.

+ its really easy to trick the autoskirm AI.

and skirmish is a core part of some RTS AI's for example the totalwar series has autoskirm available to all missile units and in no way does it detract from the gameplay, tediously moving back all your missile units is a pita. Take into account in totalwar you have 20 regiments max to control.

Though I did play all TW games at a high competitive level and found myself disabling skirmish a lot and rushing units back most of the time because the skirmish response was to slow for my liking.

[Pxtl]

I like it. I'm never sure about the autoswarm behavior of random jinking for raiders, but I'm sure I adore the autoskirm. If I want a game where my twitch skills will win, I'll play a DM FPS.

[Licho]

I don't like it much myself though i still micro units myself when i look at them. But another issue you have to weight is widget locking.

There is no way to block client side widgets properly so anyone can actualy take advantage of this. In that case its probably better to give this ability to all than only to tech skilled.

[Godde]

I'd like as much computer aid as I can get. It lets me foces on the strategy rather than what tactics to use and deploy.

Would I like to play chess and be aided by a computer?
Not really. In order for me to actually do something but acknowledging the suggestions made by the computer I have to know chess really well. People argue that computers are better than the best chess players. Some say that the highest level of chess play is obtained when a good player gets suggestions of the best outcomes from a computer.

Spring games aren't that easy to calculate as the simulation is already taking up a large portion of the CPU. That leads me, the player, to drawing conclusions about unit behaivour, tactics and strategies.
As a child, when I saw how Flashes could even kill Goliaths in OTA as they could evade the shoots, I learned how tactics and micro plays a huge role in the definition of a units capabilities.
Goliaths now lead their target so in order to dogde shoots I have to time my commands well. This is even more micro intensive. Whether it is worth the time and attention dogding shoots is up to the player and the scope of the game.
I guess that in OTA aswell as in TA:Kingdoms(which I played multiplayer not too long ago) it is hard to micro heavily at 2 places at once. You can actually feel when the other player is using his attention to counter your micro. This is very rewarding gameplay and fun. Can I outmicro him at this place with this unitcombo? What is the goal of this conflict? What is the priority target?

As the scope of the game grows and new ways to control your units is available, the unitroles change and tactics becomes available or decay because they take to much attention and micro. Knowing that rockos will skirmish automatically against reapers means that I can let them fight the reapers and focus on something else instead. Like coordinating my airforces, building or attacking somewhere else.

There are still alot of control which the player lacks and which would enhance unit control and tactical abilities. Like being able to choose targets without interfering with my units movement and targeting Anti air units only with your bombers with a single area command for example. Such capabilities would also change unit roles, tactics and emphazie strategic control.

lets face it, spring allows some of the easiest macro of any game out there, with the massively versatile queueing system, the repeat function, the zooming etc...

The soldiers must shoot themselves. The squadleaders must keep their group together. The Officers must motivate and choose the right path. The ammo and supplies must reach the front by the hands of engineers and truckdrivers. The general must decide where to advance and where to expect enemy manouvers. A general has gone through several years of military service. He has trained soldiers, officers and staff sergants. He knows his men. He know what they are capable of.

[knorke]

You can actually feel when the other player is using his attention to counter your micro. This is very rewarding gameplay and fun.

Yes, this! That is what I mean with I feel more disconnected from playing against a human player when I can not tell if the actions of his units are a decision or scripted.

I think sometimes spring games try to make things less "dull micro" but in the end the result is not what they expected.
ie lets say you are spending resources on multiple things at the same, say assisting your lab, making solars and building def. Now you can adjust the % of income spend on each task by just moving your constructors around. Want more unit production instead of making def? Just move 2 cons over to your lab.

Now ca introduced "priority" buttons. Each constructor has a toggle how much % he should spend on this construction if resources stall.
So in theory it is not easier to mange your resource flow. You can play more perfect and more efficient.
But in practice I liked the old system better, it better represented what is going on instead of using things like percent numbers that are not in the game.

[luckywaldo7]

No, if you're doing it right, production management in BA/XTA means spamming lots of wait commands. ZK is about high-level management. You don't need to babysit your guys. You just decide what resource production is important, and what is less important. Its about your decisions more than your execution. (I don't know btw what you are talking about with percent numbers, its either high priority or low priority or standard priority. And yes, it is much easier than spamming wait commands.)

You can actually feel when the other player is using his attention to counter your micro. This is very rewarding gameplay and fun.

Yes, this! That is what I mean with I feel more disconnected from playing against a human player when I can not tell if the actions of his units are a decision or scripted.

You are afraid that your opponents attention is not on his rocko's? You should be afraid! He might be laying ticks/roaches about, or else maybe going to surprise you with a bomber, or perhaps he has scythes in your base! You simply can't win this game with nothing but superior micro. There are a huge number of choices you and your enemy can make in any situation, and you need to be constantly adapting to the situation, and prevent your enemy from adapting to yours. Hiding your intentions is as much as part of the game as anything else.