balancing cruisers

[ddabadabb]

Recently people have been complaining about cruisers. Firstly that they are difficult to use and secondly that they are overpowered and since they are meant to be factories shouldnÔÇÖt shoot at all.
As a personal opinion I think that the idea of being able to decide between using a cruiser as both a unit factory and a support unit is what drew me to this mod in the first place and removal of this would lose some of the strategy to this mod.
I donÔÇÖt agree that the cruiser is much more powerful then say a bomber but rather that units especially land units are simply extremely expensive when compared to their effectiveness in combat. Hence IÔÇÖve come to the opinion that rather then the nerfing the cruisers weaponry or armour it would be better to make it so that keeping it in a factory form is more beneficial by fixing unit costs and production times to lower values, for example many of the basic tanks are simply not worth producing since they cost about the same as the cruiser itself but only provide a fraction of the offensive capabilities and mechs cost even more though admittedly are as effective then tanks in most cases. Advanced units are especially not worth it since their cost(normaly being >3000m) makes them too costly to use in battle since they may be lost.
Essentially what I propose is:
Lower basic tank cost to 3/4 for anti-air and anti-mech tanks
Lower basic mech cost to 1/2
Lower advanced tank cost to 2/3 to 1/5 (admittedly adv tanks are not worth the metal theyÔÇÖre made of) so theyÔÇÖre costs donÔÇÖt exceed 800m
Lower advanced mech costs to 1/3 so they donÔÇÖt exceed costs of 1200m and only in cases where the mech is exceptionally powerful and well armoured
Increase basic cruiser cost to 600m
Although fine tuning would be needed this should promote unit production and discourage the use of cruisers as standalone units(due to the economic risk of losing one when itÔÇÖs not defended by land units against land units while still permitting its use as a fire-support/siege unit)

Sorry for being a little longwinded but dont just go tldr

[knorke]

they are difficult to use

true. also they are difficult to use not in a "needs skill to use" way but feel very buggy when they refuse to shot, miss when shooting while turning etc.
It is luck if they kill a turret or 10 miners in one shot or hit nothing or do not shoot at all. (No, this does not balance itself out)

they are meant to be factories shouldnÔÇÖt shoot at all.

Like you, I am fine with them shooting despite being factories.

Also the flagships flak when deployed is way too strong: It is stupid to see a flagship fly towards a group of cruisers, then deploy and kill them all while being repaired by rezzers or miners. But as of now, it is the best tactic. Second best are anti-mech mechs iirc.

At the moment, a lot of units can shot air that should not be able to do so.
When this is fixed, cruisers will be even stronger.

What I suggest:
*Of course fix cruisers weapon, do not really care how, a 360┬░ laser comes to mind.
*Increase AA jeep speed, maybe decrease cost a bit.
This way jeeps can quickly come in when a cruiser comes near. Balance vs planes should not be affected because of the long reload time the jeeps have.

[ddabadabb]

it would be good to swich cruisers to a more accurate weapon but its the posibilyty of baing able to kill a bunch of unites with one hit that makes people use them even if they're uncooprative and buggy to use

[oksnoop2]

I don't really have too many problems with the factory cruisers. They hit ground targets most of the time. Air targeting is kind of eh but oh well. Now that static AA has more range it's not too hard to fend them off. AA buggy could do a little more damage to them i guess. battle cruisers are too powerful.

[knorke]

Now that static AA has more range it's not too hard to fend them off.

did you really test that in games or just guess?
T1 Cruisers still outrange AA turrets.
T1 Cruisers kill AA turret with one hit.
Nothing changed.

The AA turret needs 9 salvos to kill one cruisers which takes ~40 seconds. But T1 Cruisers can just stay out of range anyway or retreat to repair.
(repairing AA turret is useless vs Cruisers because they die in 1 hit anyway)
Anti Air Missle Turret: 280m
T1 Cruiser: 400m
I wont even test with T2 or battle cruisers...

*Increase AA jeep speed, maybe decrease cost a bit.
This way jeeps can quickly come in when a cruiser comes near. Balance vs planes should not be affected because of the long reload time the jeeps have.

[oksnoop2]

Check the source ya foo!

http://code.google.com/p/conflictterra/ ... tail?r=756

They now equal the range of cruisers , and since cruisers have a hard time aiming it's not hard to take them down.
And yes I did try it out in a multiplayer. In fact, ask ddabadabb I'm pretty sure he's the one who attacked me.


All these points will probably been moot soon anyway because the balancing effort has begun.

[knorke]

well, try it out.
you can kill AA turrets without getting hit.
Maybe it is a LOS thing or turrets use sphere range and cruisers use cylinder range or w/e but it is possible.

and since cruisers have a hard time aiming it's not hard to take them down

balance around an annoying bug, fuck yeah :/

the balancing effort has begun.

lets see what that brings :)

[SanadaUjiosan]

A single turret should not be able to destroy a cruiser. Several turrets destroying a cruiser though? Yes.

The balancing will begin primarily with costs, and then move into things like HP and damage, possibly speed (although speeds have for the most part been fine.)

[knorke]

although speeds have for the most part been fine.

currently most things moves/turns at same speed...

A single turret should not be able to destroy a cruiser. Several turrets destroying a cruiser though? Yes.

with the current turret:cruiser cost ratio its better to just spam cruisers yourself.

[knorke]

last 2 games showed that cruisers & flagship aa still dominate if you know how to use them.

[oksnoop2]

Yeah at this point i'm thinking we kill two birds with one stone and just make the factory cruisers have no attack.

[ddabadabb]

Yeah at this point i'm thinking we kill two birds with one stone and just make the factory cruisers have no attack.

That would make cruisers effectively immobile factories since no one would even try to move them at the cost of build time lost. People move cruisers around because they can shoot enemy units and give an advantage, if they canÔÇÖt shoot or itÔÇÖs not worth it having them shoot then having them mobile is also pointless, and we end up with a BA clone with static fortress bases filled with turrets, labs and e-structures.

I like what you did with the basic cruiser damage nerf it makes morphing to advanced cruisers worthwhile and doesnÔÇÖt make cruiser attacks redundant.
Tested this with missile trucks in single player 10 tanks+1 cruiser win v 15 tanks but lose to 20+ tanks.

[Johannes]

Static factories -> it's BA clone? :D

[ddabadabb]

Static factories -> it's BA clone? :D

Yup, mobile cruiser factories with weapons are much more fun.

[SanadaUjiosan]

It's a classic example of something being abused in a way unforeseen by those who put it forth. It was intended almost entirely for defensive purposes.

Moving your cruiser to a better spot when you get hit by some raiding AA jeeps? Shoot 'em down before you proceed to your new location.

Instead we're seeing 2 or 3 cruisers early in the game skirting the edge of enemy's territory, picking off units with their missiles, and often times flying in small groups into the middle of a base later in the game. It's not a desired effect.

If this upsets some people, all I can say is too bad. It upsets me that I have to alter something because my vision of the game is not parallel with the way most people play these games.

[ddabadabb]

4 AA jeeps can slaughter 2 cruisers if you micro them 3 if youÔÇÖre lucky, AA jeeps need to move to be effective not just sit there and wait to die.
Also if you add something, it does something unexpected and used in smart ways by players this is good it promotes new strategies and tactics to be employed.
If everything was used only as intended game play would be very straight forward and fundamentally a boring game of numbers(x number of units>y number of units=x wins every time)
Also 1 cruiser and 10 tanks and 5 AA jeep is 5x as effective as 4 cruisers on their own

[SanadaUjiosan]

I usually don't mind people finding new ways to use units, that's fine. The problem here is that it deviates too much from the original intention.

It's like the old Defense Mech. It was added so players could have a viable way to defend their flagship's early on, but as soon as the game went public everyone used them to raid right off the bat. So, the unit was removed.

The goal here is not to remove cruiser's abilities to attack. It is to not make people use their cruiser's offensively.

[knorke]

Moving your cruiser to a better spot when you get hit by some raiding AA jeeps? Shoot 'em down before you proceed to your new location.

Oo how can AA jeeps raid anything, they shot air only. Raid target are mostly depots&miners: land units.

4 AA jeeps can slaughter 2 cruisers if you micro them 3 if youÔÇÖre lucky, AA jeeps need to move to be effective not just sit there and wait to die.

I would like to see this further extended. By making jeeps faster. Though it does not help if the terrain favors the cruisers and quickly flying in the flagship will still be best flak.

First step would be to give cruisers a reliable weapon so that all players can use it, not only those who enjoy microing buggy units. Then make that weapon weaker to balance it.

You could also give Cruisers a weapon with basically zero range. For example bombs, a downwards firing turret or a Independance Day style laser.
This way Cruisers still have the potential to do a lot of damage, could even still take out turrets but only if you get them close - which means they have to enter AA range. If you position them over choke points, it would basically deny units without AA from going through there.
Cruisers with napalm bombs or whatever would still "feel awesome" but remove that use they currently get.
For air attack they could get a second weapon.

[ddabadabb]

You could also give Cruisers a weapon with basically zero range. For example bombs, a downwards firing turret or a Independance Day style laser.

For that kind of weapon cruisers would need to be made practically immune to AA since land units supported with a few jeeps(say 5) would kill the cruiser before they get in range, it would be effectively suiciding your cruiser and would not be worth it unless the weapon is extremely powerful(nuke scale attack power) or the cruiser could simply tank that amount of damage and make it back after dropping a few high damage bombs.
It would probably better to make a cruiser have a far more powerful long range(900) laser or plasma type weapon with a lot of splash(20-50) but a long reload(1minute) so it can just work as a slow heavy fire support cannon. Or make it a weapon that reloads only after cruiser has morphed in to lab and back since long reloads would be circumvented this way in any case.

IÔÇÖm sorry if IÔÇÖm just bashing down ideas but IÔÇÖm just trying to make a way to make cruisers work without killing them completely.(anyone remember how commandos used to be in BA 7.15 before the nerfs, I donÔÇÖt want the same thing to happen to cruisers(resigned to the scrapheap of unusable units)) personally I think theyÔÇÖre pretty good as they are with some minor tweaks here and there to make them more balanced(reload mainly[donÔÇÖt want to have the range nerfed because of reasons stated above])

[Wombat]

as long as it wont ruin ur game concept, i would suggest making all *ships core units and rest of the tanks etc support. maybe something like THIS ? some fresh gameplay