branch from cultural center debate

[Gota]

I just want to address this attack and explain what i think about it:

it is bush quality talk, frankly. just saying what is pro your argument, and ignoring the other 95% of reality.

if you had used just a second of brain-time

So if you had used your brain, your anti-muslim argument would have had to be: "they are slimy pigs!"
a pro argument would be: "they are trying to work towards peace!"
edit: fixed typos, added one sentence

Ok, you say I'm anti muslim?I say why are you not?
ATM muslim countries are the most religious countries is the world along side several other very poor countries.
Islam is also the second largest religion in the world.
Anywhere where there are muslim countries there are tensions and military conflicts.
Europe, middle-east, Asia, Africa..
This is not speculation or bias this is just fact.

As a none believer secular person Why would i not be against Islam?
I am against All oppressive religions that somehow try and interfere with other people's lives.
Christian Europe today has managed to mostly break free from religion,especially it's most harsh tenants(its still not there completely) but people in Muslim countries have not been able to achieve such progress in this respect.
How must a secualr jew living in a country surrounded by fundamentalist islamic countries feel about islam?
Yes i think it should be pressured as much as possible to secularize muslims population as fast as possible.
There is obviously a revival in recent years of islamic fundementalist preaching.
I imagine it as a struggle both within the Muslim world community and the muslim versus secular none Muslim world.
Neither Islam christianity or Judaism can be truly peaceful or truly strive for peace
and democratic equality and human rights.
Only secular parts within these societies have the potential to strive for a peaceful living because the secular way of life and ways of thinking are flexible enough to allow it.

Islam today is the strongest showcase of what extremes Abrahamic religions can come to and therefor must be fought with full force.
It should not be accepted or embraced,it should be pressured and shoved to the peripherals of society much like the process christianity is completing today.
Along side the power of scientific education we must also reveal and showcase all the absurdities and flaws that reside inside these belief systems because while education is a long term solution we also need a short term one.

Am i against oppressive religions in general Hoijui?yes.
Do I think Islam is the biggest threat to a secular person right now?yes,and it's 10 times more true where i live.
You can say that There is a big number of religious people in Israel but none the less it in no way comes close to Muslim countries and Israel has a much better secular education system.
I do all in my small amount of power to struggle against jewdiasm as well,and I always vote for secular or support secular opinion in any discussion.

For those that believe you can just be nonchalant about these issues whether its Islam or christianity or Judaism and it will all slowly go away might not be correct...
even though secularization has been rising it is not guaranteed this process will continue.

[KaiserJ]

seems to me the problem is not with islam as a religion but with politicians and leaders using religion as a foundation for turning people to their viewpoint. any religion can be good or bad; doesn't it lie in the realm of interpretation as to how people act on religious teachings?

i just figure if people in these countries that are islamic states were better educated, there would be less of a mindless following of the rules and would rather have their own opinions or viewpoints and come to their own conclusions

and yes i realize that the islamic governments are against the idea of non-islamic teachings, so it's a circular argument; i just feel that "evil" comes from humans themselves, not from blindly following divine instruction. these leaders pervert the words of others to fit their own gains, and since there is no alternate explaination put forth, people have little option other than to follow blindly

that been said, i do see fundamentalist islamic states as a threat to my own western lifestyle; not in terms of the individual citizens but as a whole : an absolutist government that dictates what you can do or think.

[Gota]

seems to me the problem is not with islam as a religion but with politicians and leaders using religion as a foundation for turning people to their viewpoint. any religion can be good or bad; doesn't it lie in the realm of interpretation as to how people act on religious teachings?

i just figure if people in these countries that are islamic states were better educated, there would be less of a mindless following of the rules and would rather have their own opinions or viewpoints and come to their own conclusions

and yes i realize that the islamic governments are against the idea of non-islamic teachings, so it's a circular argument; i just feel that "evil" comes from humans themselves, not from blindly following divine instruction. these leaders pervert the words of others to fit their own gains, and since there is no alternate explaination put forth, people have little option other than to follow blindly

that been said, i do see fundamentalist islamic states as a threat to my own western lifestyle; not in terms of the individual citizens but as a whole : an absolutist government that dictates what you can do or think.

Well I dont believe in bad people,I believe in bad systems or structures that allow people to be bad.
There is "bad" in every one of us we just need to accept that and do all in our power to subdue it.
I dont think Islamic countries are much different than christian church led countries some time ago but it holds no relevance since we are not asked to deal with those historical entities we are asked to deal with Islamic influence right now.

[echoone]

Islam is a tricky thing and the topic is surprisingly deep and complex. I'll touch on a couple of things here but I'm sure its not even touching the surface.

First and foremost, much of the extreme negatives associated with Islam is actually a fairly recent mutation of the religion stemming from the 70's. That's not to say things like stonings are recent, bu they are hardly unique to Islam.

Ignoring more recent mutations and abuses of the Islamic religion, we can attempt to identify some of the more fundamentally broken aspects of it. First and foremost, is the Koran. Well, not really the Koran itself. The world's largest publisher of the Koran is the Saudi government. Made worse, Saudi teaches an extremely unpopular and minority sect of Islam. Made yet worse, they've adopted the Koran to be extremely anti-western. They even augment the Koran with modernized messages such that it explains what passages mean. Which usually translates to mean, Westerners are all of your problems and if they cross you, kill them. Which, needless to say, it almost completely contrary to the teachings of the Koran. Which is really not surprising given that Tyrants typically use scapegoats to explain away their own ineptitudes. The Saudi's do this for self empowerment and protection of their rule. As such, its hardly surprising in the least why almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi.

Add to the mix, there is no central authority for Islam. The closest is the Saudi's abuse of their printing capacity. Which in of itself, is still a far cry from having real authority. So lacking any central authority, each sect creates its own rule and interpretation.

Next comes interpretation. The Koran has a slightly more modern (by a couple hundred years) companion book which explains how the Koran is to be applied and how its teachings are to be interpreted; ignoring the Saudi's much more modern effort. This concept is actually contrary to the teachings of the Koran as the Koran, in of it self, is to be the final word of Mohammad and therefore the final word of God. Thus far, we've set the stage for confusion and conflict within Islam. Even worse, every fifth stanza of the Koran is confusing, ambiguous, and rarely makes sense even outside of the provided context. These are frequently abused by zealots to further their own interpretation of the Koran.

So now we'll pile on even more. Some sects of Islam actually elevate the companion book to an equal and/or higher status than that of the Koran, despite the Koran clearly making it known it is the final word of God. This is why such much conflict exists in the Muslim world, as most sects fall to one side or the other of this divide. This divide, for example, is the reason why civil war in Iraq broke out for bit in recent, post-Saddam times. And that's just the stage of inter-Islamic conflict.

Many people don't realize that Islam is actually built on top of Christianity in much the same way Christianity is built on top of Judaism. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all considered Abrahamic religions. Which means they all worship the god of Abraham. They all share many of the same Gospels as cannon material; literally. Much of the Old Testament is literally taken from Judaism. Accordingly, much that is written for Islam is also taken from these same books; literally. Islam even views Jesus as a prophet of immaculate conception. Well, most sects do anyways. But the real conflict stems from the fact that Mohammad teaches the Christian and Jewish teachings have been corrupted by man and man's translation. It then goes on to teach that since man is corrupted by Satan, those religions have been corrupted by Satan. See a source of conflict brewing here?

Even more confusing is the fact that Islam teaches the Koran is as it has always been and is therefore immune to the corruption of the other major religions. Until recently, the immutability of the Koran has never been contested. The problem is, not long ago, among many old scrolls, several Korans have been found. Each pre-dates current Koran teachings. And in turn, even those really old Korans are not synchronized.

One of the Korans is actually untranslated, using a dead form of Arabic which lacked accents, which are common in more modern forms of Arabic. The other discovered Koran actually differs in text and shows various edits of time which is actually fairly close to modern Korans. And yet, this bizarre turn of events gets even more bizarre. All research thus far, seems to indicate that every other copy of the Koran suffers from absolutely wrong translations. In other words, every Koran taught to man is completely wrong.

Translation errors include, rather than martyrs receiving virgins in heaven, they get grapes. Which suddenly makes historic sense considering women, even virgins, were held in lower regard than were livestock. Furthermore, grapes were held in high regard, considered a gift from God, and were commonly used in religious events. Even more so, with the new translation, suddenly every fifth stanza of the Koran now makes absolute sense, even within context.

And so we're now left with the absolute definition of irony. The religion which teaches all other religions have been corrupted appears to be the religion more corrupted by mankind than any other religion known to mankind in all of history.

But...ignoring all that...the teachings of the Koran, at face value and tempered by modern readings, should be no more feared than Judaism or Christianity. Accordingly, "real" Muslims (there actually are no real Muslims) are extremely peaceful people and shun violence. As such, Muslims, in of themselves, should not be shunned. Muslims in American, for example, are largely very peaceful because they don't have the anti-Western hatred shoved down their throat, belong to a democratic society, are educated, and generally live outside of extreme poverty.

When talking about Islam, its important to make the distinction between the people, the religion, and their form of governance. Which means, its a surprisingly tricky and deep topic.

[Gota]

Interesting...
Why can only the saudis print the koran?
Where did you read about these new korans?link?
Cant seem to find info about it.

[echoone]

Interesting...
Why can only the saudis print the koran?
Where did you read about these new korans?link?
Cant seem to find info about it.

I've read it in multiple places (sorry, no links) over time and have even watched a documentary on it on the History Channel.

Seems Wikipedia finally caught up and now contains some references to this work. I didn't read the Wikipedia article in length so I'm not completely sure what it has to say on the subject. I only verified it contained references to what I was talking about.

Obviously Islam is denouncing the work as the work of Satan (he left the scripts for man to find) or that its a conspiracy of The West to undermine all Islamic society.

Its hard to find stuff right off via searches, but once you start digging and have better information, it becomes easier to refine your searches to find better and better information.

[echoone]

Why can only the saudis print the koran?

Sorry, didn't originally see this. I must of not been clear. Its not that Saudi is the only one able to publish, its that they are by far, the largest and most pervasive publisher of the Koran in the world. Its actually considered a function of government, much like printing currency.

[PicassoCT]

Oh, yeah, now we are in the intellectual goldfish glass, we just make a refined version of the holy book, and every of the programmed zealotrobots is going to turn around and become a peacenik. Just have to overcome the prohibition sura "any change is the devil", which is pretty simple once we have rewritten the holy book, and there we go for another round along the glass wall. Looped Error of thought is boooring until the unrevell-weakspot of the gordian knot is found.

Its simply this way, some religions have build in flaws, that allow for a secular society to build up, to coexist for some time, and even consume there followers longterm.

Now, surprise, surprise, some religions have a protection mechanism against that. You can see those mechanisms at work also at some cults in western society, its isolation through forbidden food, daily habbits, claiming that unbelievers are not halal, isolate the religious comunity (sever communication, or retreat into remote areas- if you make the majority, you can also scare off unbelievers by altering laws, society, everything) Lets get over it, and nevar forget, fighting fire with fire doesent work after hiroshima, so orthodox jew vs islamiac terrorist vs. reborn cheezUS makes us all equal losers.

[echoone]

makes us all equal losers.

The number one cause of murder, historically, is religion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people participating in religion. I even believe a little spiritualism is good for many people. In fact, the lack of any morale or spiritual compass over the last several decades points to many negative societal trends in the US ("Greed is good", for example.). Having a rudder of some type is almost always better than having no rudder at all. Which is not to say, religion and/or spirituality is the only way to obtain a morale compass.

As the old cliche goes, everything is good in moderation. The real problems stem when people take anything to an extreme, becoming zealots. To paraphrase you, zealotry creates losers. Brainless losers at that.

As an interesting side note, speaking of negative trends, did you know most fortune 500 CEOs can be clinically classified as sociopaths? But thankfully we've all been assured there is nothing wrong with "crazy" people in charge of the majority of the world's wealth and power. Sadly, that's the world we all live in.

[Gota]

makes us all equal losers.

The number one cause of murder, historically, is religion.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people participating in religion. I even believe a little spiritualism is good for many people. In fact, the lack of any morale or spiritual compass over the last several decades points to many negative societal trends in the US ("Greed is good", for example.). Having a rudder of some type is almost always better than having no rudder at all. Which is not to say, religion and/or spirituality is the only way to obtain a morale compass.

As the old cliche goes, everything is good in moderation. The real problems stem when people take anything to an extreme, becoming zealots. To paraphrase you, zealotry creates losers. Brainless losers at that.

As an interesting side note, speaking of negative trends, did you know most fortune 500 CEOs can be clinically classified as sociopaths? But thankfully we've all been assured there is nothing wrong with "crazy" people in charge of the majority of the world's wealth and power. Sadly, that's the world we all live in.

You know the more you post the less I enjoy reading your posts.For me you peaked at your nice explanation of the complexities of Islam and it's inner branching.
Where are you taking all these "facts" from?
you keep stating all sorts of amazing things, I wish youd provide some basis for all of these statements.

500 fortune ceos are sociopaths?where is this information taken from?
Sounds like complete unsubstantiated rubbish.
Religion is the number one murder cause?What is this claim based on?I'm not sure how it is possible to sum up all these deaths but the biggest murderers in history had nothing to do with religion.
The biggest wars in human history had nothing or little to do with religion.
Mongol empire and its wars.
most of the genocides and wars/colonialism executed by European nations in Africa and America had nothing to do with religion.

Mau,hitler,Stalin,Khamer rouge,Lenin....All wars related to the cold war.
Napoleonic wars,WW1,WW2.
Roman conquest.Macedonian conquests..
There are many more examples..

[hoijui]

if the US helps the taliban to fight the soviet union, are muslims to blame?
in what conflict zone in regions with muslim majority is it not the US, Europe, Soviet Union that (re-)initiated the conflict? reasons are usually: to fight the cold war enemy indirectly or ensuring control/supply of oil, drugs or whatever. means are: supporting a rebel groups, preventing a "wrong" government to get to/stay at power, provoking a war, economical restrictions or flooding the market with too cheap foreign products and.. i guess there are more.

CEOs actually have to be sociopaths for their job, which is, to work for the best of a virtual entity, no matter the cost for real beings.

also Gota... you are just... clearly brainwashed. That is no fonder, considering you are living in a quite "intensive" part of the world. The funny thing is, that you call us nonobjective, while we have quite some more distance to the topic at hand. i have lived in intense zones too, and i know that it is practically impossible to not be brainwashed. even if you do not watch, read and listen to local news, you will still be talking to people all day that do so.
that does not mean that we are more right then you, but it means that this whole discussion is quite pointless, as it is not possible to overcome the resulting barrier through a bit of discussion and rational arguments, if you have learned it all your live.
if you know that the general muslim is a stupid person, being blindly guided by religious fallacies, you will see a plan for a religious center as an act of war. we will not understand that, and our arguments will not rewire you.

"not all muslims are terrorists" -> like.. 80% ?

[echoone]

As an interesting side note, speaking of negative trends, did you know most fortune 500 CEOs can be clinically classified as sociopaths? But thankfully we've all been assured there is nothing wrong with "crazy" people in charge of the majority of the world's wealth and power. Sadly, that's the world we all live in.

You know the more you post the less I enjoy reading your posts.For me you peaked at your nice explanation of the complexities of Islam and it's inner branching.
Where are you taking all these "facts" from?
you keep stating all sorts of amazing things, I wish youd provide some basis for all of these statements.

Is it really that hard to google, "ceo sociopath"?

Just because you have no knowledge of something or don't like what you read doesn't refute a fact.

Thankfully the basis for my statements are these things called, "facts".

[Gota]

As an interesting side note, speaking of negative trends, did you know most fortune 500 CEOs can be clinically classified as sociopaths? But thankfully we've all been assured there is nothing wrong with "crazy" people in charge of the majority of the world's wealth and power. Sadly, that's the world we all live in.

You know the more you post the less I enjoy reading your posts.For me you peaked at your nice explanation of the complexities of Islam and it's inner branching.
Where are you taking all these "facts" from?
you keep stating all sorts of amazing things, I wish youd provide some basis for all of these statements.

Is it really that hard to google, "ceo sociopath"?

Just because you have no knowledge of something or don't like what you read doesn't refute a fact.

Thankfully the basis for my statements are these things called, "facts".

I think your idea of what makes a fact fact is very distrubing.
What is this idea based on?speculation.All i found were some blogs about it.
Where is the research and data?Did these CEOs allowed to be examined by a psychiatrist and did brain scans?Where is al lthis data about all these CEOS.
Looks to me like you are just regurgitating some anti corporation ignorant sentiments.

[KaiserJ]

500 fortune ceos are sociopaths?where is this information taken from?

i saw this on a television documentary

it was talking about these various psychological tests that were administered on prisoners prior to their parole, meant to ascertain their mental state and if they would be able to re-integrate into society.

you can read about the tests here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

the problem is that a lot of the information gleaned from the test is unsubstantiated; it's a bit like doing the "left brain, right brain" test, which although somewhat interesting really reveals nothing about your psychological state

the logic behind the CEO comment is that in order for people to "reach the top" like that, they have to be willing to put down their fellow man without remorse and press forwards with a fully selfish goal.

Factor1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Promiscuous sexual behavior
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility

i'd be surprised if most CEOs didn't have at least 50% of these characteristics... but at the same time it sort of makes me question this test as being able to identify legitimate psychopaths

anyways for CEOs, this test is given as a questionnaire to the people who work beneath them. i can't find any statistics.

http://www.b-scan.com/

[echoone]

I think your idea of what makes a fact fact is very distrubing.

Then you consider psychology and other social sciences to be disturbing.

The CEO's knowingly participated in at least one study, possibly two. They were followed and monitored throughout their business day. Other sources of information were also included, such as public decisions and possibly written questions, etc. The study's findings were widely publicized.

You are correct that in the strict sense these are not actually, facts. They do, however, qualify, in more relaxed layman's usage, as, "facts." Meaning, as indicated by current research. Obviously research results can evolve over time. So its more accurate to say, current research indicates the majority of fortune 500 CEOs are sociopaths. Just the same, I hardly think such pedantic hair splitting really makes any difference here.

Unless you can produce a study which refutes the study to which I refer, my statement appears to be valid. And worst case, it would be simply refuting a good faith statement made on my behalf. Such a statement is certainly not made out of malice or an intent to mislead. But frankly, of all things, your desire to prosecute such statements seems to hint at malice and reprisal rather than a desire for truth.

[Gota]

if the US helps the taliban to fight the soviet union, are muslims to blame?
in what conflict zone in regions with muslim majority is it not the US, Europe, Soviet Union that (re-)initiated the conflict? reasons are usually: to fight the cold war enemy indirectly or ensuring control/supply of oil, drugs or whatever. means are: supporting a rebel groups, preventing a "wrong" government to get to/stay at power, provoking a war, economical restrictions or flooding the market with too cheap foreign products and.. i guess there are more.

CEOs actually have to be sociopaths for their job, which is, to work for the best of a virtual entity, no matter the cost for real beings.

also Gota... you are just... clearly brainwashed. That is no fonder, considering you are living in a quite "intensive" part of the world. The funny thing is, that you call us nonobjective, while we have quite some more distance to the topic at hand. i have lived in intense zones too, and i know that it is practically impossible to not be brainwashed. even if you do not watch, read and listen to local news, you will still be talking to people all day that do so.
that does not mean that we are more right then you, but it means that this whole discussion is quite pointless, as it is not possible to overcome the resulting barrier through a bit of discussion and rational arguments, if you have learned it all your live.
if you know that the general muslim is a stupid person, being blindly guided by religious fallacies, you will see a plan for a religious center as an act of war. we will not understand that, and our arguments will not rewire you.

"not all muslims are terrorists" -> like.. 80% ?

I'm not even gonna go into the CEO thing cause you base what you say on nothing.
you dont have to be a psychopath to do evil or calculated things.
Are you now gonna attribute every evil dead to psychopathy?
Maybe every persona that does some bad shit is a psychopath?
Just completely silly notions.
Unless you show me scientific studies done on this subject i wont continue discussing it.
Where do you see that i am brainwashed?Ok I think you are brainwashed as well.
Such unbelievable sense of superiority.
You are clearly Objective and i am clearly brainwashed.
You made zero intelligent points to defend your argument all you did was say im brainwashed over and over again...You know in an intelligent discussion repeating something many times does not make it more right.
You are trolling head on.
What points of mine do you disagree with?quote those parts and explain your opinion.

also claiming the news media in Israel is strongly biased versus Muslims is completely ridicules.
I assume that is where i have been "taught" to hate muslims?right? I laugh at your pitiful accusations.

You know I'm not sure if you are aware of the point you are taking about The relationship between islamic countries and none islamic countries, but one of It's prominent sources is Tariq Ali who basicly claimed that all the problems in the muslim world are to blame on exterior forces.
That is a silly claim and one which has been poked and ripped up pretty badly yet its still a mantra the intellectual left uses all the time.

The Us training the Taliban against the soviet union has nothing to do with the Taliban blowing up the WTC.
Stop connection dots that should not be connected.

There is constant friction of muslim and none muslim populations in africa,in indonesia,in india,in pakistan in russia/chechnya,in spain,in britain and of course in america.

Islamic fundementalists have an issue with the west regardless of what it does.
This is something some fail to understand even when people who were a part of some fundamentalist group try and explain that.
Do you denounce the fact 99% of all terrorist acts have been performed by Muslim fundamentalists in recent times?
Are you claiming that this militant Islam is a creation of the west?that is just not true.

I posted to videos in the other thread, I suggest that you watch them.
in the second one the guy says that the solution,in his opinion to fundamental Islam is moderate Islam.
force it to undergo the stages Judaism and christianity are undergoing by asking the question of how to merge religious laws with modern life.Meaning...becoming more secular and in line with secular ideals.

[echoone]

The Us training the Taliban against the soviet union has nothing to do with the Taliban blowing up the WTC.
Stop connection dots that should not be connected.

You are correct. The Taliban did not even exist when the US was training and supplying Afghanis. In fact, Bin Laden is amongst those who were directly trained by the US to counter the Soviet invasion. The Taliban is what filled the power/leadership vacuum when both the Soviets and the US pulled out.

Islamic fundementalists have an issue with the west regardless of what it does.
This is something some fail to understand even when people who were a part of some fundamentalist group try and explain that.

I agree. See my "scapegoat" comments. Claims of external forces are frequently the cry of tyrants. See North Korea, much of the Middle East, and even China for classic examples.

I don't believe anyone is arguing Islam is without trouble. In fact, I believe you'll find most openly argue Islam is extremely troubled right now. I believe my lengthy post about Islam attempts to establish this position. But do note, I ended that post asking for people to make the distinction between the religion, the people, and its form of governance.

Your point of view likely has a lot more credibility when one is willing to conflate all three; and likely many other factors. Unfortunately, that's by in large the problem most Americans have. They only see a conflation, not people, with an extremely diverse religion, which is rooted in a part of the world amidst extreme strife, poverty, and political unrest.

[Gota]

To make a distinction between the believers, the faith and how the muslim faith commends muslims should be governed?
to what means?
Are you trying to say that one of those is bad or negative so we must discern between all three so as to show the other ones are not bad?
All three are connected obviously and you cannot break them apart.
I never said Islam is a worse religion or that the muslims or arabs are lesser human beings or are somehow fundamentally evil.
All i said is that ATM the problem is that muslims are very religious and many of those that immigrate to the west especially Europe are poorly educated this results in polls in some European countries where muslims state that they see a problem of both following the laws of their host democratic country and the laws of islam to which they are also dedicated.

I never claimed muslims are sub par humans but for some reason you and others feel the need to hit the same straw man saying that,some people treat muslims or make muslims to appear as if they are people of a lower calibre.

How has that got anything to do with this discussion?
Many people think jews are people of a lower caliber, so what?
Should we also inject that fact in this discussion as well?
Or does the fact some people are bigoted towards jews mean that jews cannot be examined or criticized?
I think there is tons of room to criticize orthodox jews as a group for example.
Must i avoid it because SOME racists are racist towards jews?
It makes no sense my friend.

You an others here are apparently, because of what i wrote above, trapped in some ultra Liberal conception that we must always tip toe and ignore things cause we might spark up some extreme views.
Obviously this sentiment is a natural European backlash at what happened in WW2 but it has also gone to an extreme end.
Such line of action and world view is incorrect.

This is on of the reason IMO why Muslims do not assimilate properly in Europe.
Many European countries decided to lose all identity.
Muslim immigrants dont assimilate because there is nothing to assimilate into...
There is no pressure to assimilate cause the world view that says that a country should be ruled by sharia law is accepted as part of the prevailing idea of multiculturalism.
everything is equal and everything is relative so why not adopt sharih law and by what right should muslims be pressed to acceot say British law and way of living?

There is no pressure to assimilate.

You just have to proclaim that democratic values and human rights and women's right are objectively better than what sharia law or any other ignorant middle aged doctrine dictates.

Only now has Europe started to understand that Multiculturalism is failing hard.
Instead of Multiculturalism Europe should adopt Pluralism.
There must be a cultural backbone into which other populations of different types can be absorbed.

This is on of the reasons why The Situation is far better in the US in regards to islamic immigration and assimilation.

[PicassoCT]

I dont care that many CEOs are sociopaths, they have to be, because the healthy standard human everybody talks about (meaning himself) never existed. The human species is basically just a carrierrace, producing all sorts of wired subclasses of humans, some psychopatic, some sociopathic, some autistic, some oversocial (they definatly will have a standard were you dont fit in), and out of this legobrixpeople, complex maschinery can be built, glued with obsessions and with guilt, tuened to burn bright people so humanity as a whole can advance, or in islams case, tuned to preserve human kind in very hostile enviroments, were every innovation is dangerous.

So Sociopaths are okay, as long as they -
a) provide something for society
b) the use is bigger than the damage
c) there are harder checks and balances on them, so if they went astray (hard to buckle before the law if you see people as puppets)
d) they undertake risky endevours, normal people would never even dream off- just imagine you would lead a big company, and you get this opportunity, that could make you very rich - or get 250.000 people unemployed. Normal people would be parallized, just by the idea of the havoc, any kind of action could wreck upon those poor people. And it even happens, you can see it on the stockmarket, when a stevejobs drops out, and normal people take over, freezing any movement.

Needless to say, we also need moar weirdos on drugs, just for the hellofit.

[Sleksa]

Ok, you say I'm anti muslim?I say why are you not?

coming from a country which respects the human rights of its own (jewish) citizens only this thread isnt as surprising as i thought it would be.