Unit Request: Lvl 2 anti-air KBot

[EdvonSchleck]

On mountainous maps where tanks can't get thru I often experience the problem that my attacking KBots get eaten by enemy brawlers. While I don't think brawlers are unbalanced (not any more), I can't see a way in which I could defend against this effectively. I need huge amounts of Jethros/Crashers, but they die like flies in combat, and then their wrecks make it almost impossible for my attack-force to get thru quickly enough. When I use Vamps/Hawks, the enemy just has to wait until my KBots are right in front of his base to hit me with his brawlers, so when I send my Vamps/Hawks, they fly around in a radius so big that they die in enemy AA defense.

To make a long story short: What I need is a Lvl 2 anti-air bot, that is small and reasonably armored, equipped with flak or (better yet) lots of AA missiles (I like the look of it). Doesn't need to be fast, just as fast as the standard Lvl 2 KBot. Make it 4 or 5 times more powerful (and exensive) than the Lvl 1 version.

I'd like to hear if anyone else has this problem, how you solve it or if you too miss this unit.

[Min3mat]

thats the sacrifice of going adv kbots (adv = moho + light fus as CORE with a lone adv con and a few necros also both sides get nice 'niche' kbots for all sorts, the whole point being they need adv v support for heavy AA

[Pxtl]

thats the sacrifice of going adv kbots (adv = moho + light fus as CORE with a lone adv con and a few necros also both sides get nice 'niche' kbots for all sorts, the whole point being they need adv v support for heavy AA

He was referring to mountainous terrain that only k-bots and aircraft can traverse.

Play a different map.

[EdvonSchleck]

Play a different map.

I mostly do that: I don't play non-flat maps.

But there are lots of mountainous maps around, and it would make them a lot more interesting to play if they were actually playable.

[AF]

It was my impression you used a mix and added aircraft such as hawks for that sort of thing..............

[BadMan]

Hmm, why don't you try jamming up your attack force to keep the enemy busy, and send in a bunch of jammed farks/necros close to his def (but out of the range of fire) and mass up some flakkers. On mount. maps, u can put those flaks on higher ground and try to put some walls up around them to make em last longer.

Also, mobile flaks are pretty tiny, maybe you can find a path for them somewhere.

[SecurE]

It has been my experience when modyfying heightmaps that if a flash can get through a pass, so can a brawler and vice versa. So it is unlikely that a mobile flak could get where a ordinary vehicle force could not unless their climb value is differnt. Of course, if you are using kbots because it is more efficent, but there actually are paths for vehicles, then mobile flaks might work, at a cost obviously.

[EdvonSchleck]

... unless their climb value is differnt.

That makes me think: If sb. changed that climb value for mobile flaks a bit, so that they can climb steeper hills, it'll probably solve the problem as well. And on normal terrains it wouldn't make a balance difference, since noone in the sane mind relies solely on mobile flaks as an attack force.

[Gabba]

When I use Vamps/Hawks, the enemy just has to wait until my KBots are right in front of his base to hit me with his brawlers, so when I send my Vamps/Hawks, they fly around in a radius so big that they die in enemy AA defense.

A solution nobody has proposed would be to have better control over the aircraft. I have the same problem with them wandering around and getting slaughtered by AA. If you could assign them a safe area where they hover, and then conduct hit-and-run attacks and return to that area, I'm sure they'd be more useful.

thats the sacrifice of going adv kbots (adv = moho + light fus as CORE with a lone adv con and a few necros also both sides get nice 'niche' kbots for all sorts, the whole point being they need adv v support for heavy AA

Yeah, that's the way it is now. But this brings up a larger discussion: what's the philosophy for the difference between vehicles/kbots/hovercraft/naval? Does each class have to have basically the same units, but that moves in a different way? (Remember the ultra-heavy hovercrafts of some unit packs, that were a physical nonsense?)
If the difference between kbots and vehicles are that kbots climb slopes better, are slower and have generally less armor, I don't see why we shouldn't add an AA Kbot.

[Vehementi]

Yeah, that's the way it is now. But this brings up a larger discussion: what's the philosophy for the difference between vehicles/kbots/hovercraft/naval? Does each class have to have basically the same units, but that moves in a different way? (Remember the ultra-heavy hovercrafts of some unit packs, that were a physical nonsense?)
If the difference between kbots and vehicles are that kbots climb slopes better, are slower and have generally less armor, I don't see why we shouldn't add an AA Kbot.

Yeah, I was about to bring that up too. As far as I understand, that's the philosophy: K-Bots are slow but maneuverable; Vehicles are fast and armored, but less maneuverable; Aircraft are faster, more maneuverable, and more expensive.

[EdvonSchleck]

A solution nobody has proposed would be to have better control over the aircraft.

I like your ideas. Although it probably belongs to another post, I think the easiest way to solve the problem of fighters being killed by AA is that they oughta look if their (move or attack) goal is within the radius of AA. If it is not, there is no reason to move thru areas were there's AA; instead they could fly routes outside of it. One could be (and often ends up) doing it with a lot of micromanagement, but I'm talking about fighters supporting an attack where you have other things to worry about.

But this brings up a larger discussion: what's the philosophy for the difference between vehicles/kbots/hovercraft/naval? Does each class have to have basically the same units, but that moves in a different way?

Apart from the things already mentioned, I like the way that adv KBot and adv vehicle fill different niches - but that doesn't imply that each unit class shouldn't be autonomous in terms of being able to form a well-balanced attack mix.

[Pxtl]

I think this is a place where Spring has, quite simply, broken TA. In OTA, vehicles can go almost every place that most K-bots can - the distinction was pretty much artificial. In Spring, K-bots have different terrain abilities from vehicles.

To me, the answer is still mapping: no map should _require_ that you use k-bots instead of vehicles - perhaps allow a few minor shortcuts, but that's it. Then, using a k-bot squad to attack over odd ground is a gamble. The player can choose to make a strategic assault that includes a full unitspread, or limit himself to those that can make a small tactical strike. This is teh same decision that occurs when a player chooses an amphib assault - they can do things normal units can't, but they have weakness.

[EdvonSchleck]

I think this is a place where Spring has, quite simply, broken TA.

I understand your point of view very well. But since Spring gives map makers the possibility to create very different types of maps, I feel it to be not satisfying to generaly rule out certain types of maps, just because the current unit set is still too close to OTA in which (due to limitations in engine and mapmaking) those situations weren't thought of.

I still want KBots to be less armoured and all, so that this

The player can choose to make a strategic assault that includes a full unitspread, or limit himself to those that can make a small tactical strike.

is still an option on standard maps - but a few changes could open up Spring to where OTA couldn't go.

[mongus]

take out aa first.

dumb answer sry.

yeps a walking aa feels like needed.

but there are more ways to counter that what you described.

[GrOuNd_ZeRo]

Well, Pelicans are armed with AA missiles, they aren't much better than Jethro's but they still do the job.

I do support the idea of a heavy AA Kbot though, maybe a combination of Flak and Missiles would be best, would you like me to design something like a heavy AA Kbot?

[SwiftSpear]

Kbots are ninjas. The whole point of using them is to get around at angles the enemy isn't expecting. If your enemy knows where your kbots are in time to brawlie own them you either just got really unlucky or you've been using them wrong.

[Vehementi]

They should just make the L2 rocket kbot mechwarrior thing an anti-air, if they're going to make an anti air... but yeah, I agree that K-bots are ninjas, they don't stand up to attack, they're pretty much purely offensive and guerilla defensive. At least for arm... maybe core should get something effective against air?

[EdvonSchleck]

I do support the idea of a heavy AA Kbot though, maybe a combination of Flak and Missiles would be best, would you like me to design something like a heavy AA Kbot?

Well yeah, that'd be awesome.

At least for arm... maybe core should get something effective against air?

That's true; Arm has their Pelicans, and Zeus are fast yet strong enough to make such a ninja-attack-thing. But I wouldn't say that this goes for Core: If your enemy is worth anythinig, he has detected approaching Sumos pretty soon, even if you radar-jam them, and Pyros are fast, but die too quickly to do an effective attack. With core you can do the Pyro/Morty attack, but same problem: Even if your Pyros get through to his base unnoticed, brawlers will take out your KBot artillerie lurking behind.
Well I'm not sayin KBot attacks are entirely impossible right now, but I think KBot AA will make it a bit more strategical to defend against than just building brawlies.

They should just make the L2 rocket kbot mechwarrior thing an anti-air, if they're going to make an anti air

I disagree; well for the most parts they're useless, but I've done some good surprise attacks with them.

[Gabba]

Well, Pelicans are armed with AA missiles, they aren't much better than Jethro's but they still do the job.

I do support the idea of a heavy AA Kbot though, maybe a combination of Flak and Missiles would be best, would you like me to design something like a heavy AA Kbot?

Yep, that would be nice addition. Especially if it's designed by you!

[SwiftSpear]

But I wouldn't say that this goes for Core: If your enemy is worth anythinig, he has detected approaching Sumos pretty soon, even if you radar-jam them, and Pyros are fast, but die too quickly to do an effective attack.

I've taken out a doomsday gun and a bertha with 12 pyros... but I've also died to an HLT and a popup. Pyros are EXTREAMLY deadly if they can get within range of thier target before they are dead. They do TONNES of damage and just rip down anything they are shooting at. In my opinion pyro's are the ultimate ninja kbot. They really don't have any finishing power, but watch that replay with dave and SJ, they do thier damage fast and die with more then thier worth destroyed on the other side if you use them right.