Supreme Legacy v1.1 Released!

[CarRepairer]

Here's my attempt:

For every unit, there is at least one viable scenario where that unit is as suitable or more suitable than any other unit to tackle the task (of defense, offense, or some other task) that shifts the balance of power slightly towards you.

[j5mello]

TLL is so balanced right now they don't even get ships... (yes i checked every buildable con unit none of them can build the shipyard, i /gave myself the t2 con sub and it can't move and doesn't have a build list)

Also several of units with long setup anims are firing before the anim is complete. Off hand i remember the TLL Anni, their pop up cannon, and their pop-up laser all do it.

Also why did you remove the TLL Geo's ability to switch over to being a MM? that was a neat little thing that helped make them unique.

[Pxtl]

Here's my attempt:

For every unit, there is at least one viable scenario where that unit is as suitable or more suitable than any other unit to tackle the task (of defense, offense, or some other task) that shifts the balance of power slightly towards you.

This is true in BA. The trick is how often that scenario comes up. In BA? For many units, that scenario is very, very rare.

[Jazcash]

Here's my attempt:

For every unit, there is at least one viable scenario where that unit is as suitable or more suitable than any other unit to tackle the task (of defense, offense, or some other task) that shifts the balance of power slightly towards you.

This is true in BA. The trick is how often that scenario comes up. In BA? For many units, that scenario is very, very rare.

I agree, BA is more about out spamming the enemy and less about thinking, strategies and tactics. In most cases, it does have units which are designed to counter other units, but the problem is the costs, time to get the units out there and how effective they will be when you can just out spam cheap units to win.

[CarRepairer]

This is true in BA. The trick is how often that scenario comes up. In BA? For many units, that scenario is very, very rare.

Rare but not nonexistant, meaning the unit is required.

Here's my attempt:

For every unit, there is at least one viable scenario where that unit is as suitable or more suitable than any other unit to tackle the task (of defense, offense, or some other task) that shifts the balance of power slightly towards you.

This is true in BA. The trick is how often that scenario comes up. In BA? For many units, that scenario is very, very rare.

I agree, BA is more about out spamming the enemy and less about thinking, strategies and tactics. In most cases, it does have units which are designed to counter other units, but the problem is the costs, time to get the units out there and how effective they will be when you can just out spam cheap units to win.

Cost is covered by the phrase "shifts the balance of power to you" whereas if it's not cost effective then it's not worth doing at all.

[Google_Frog]

Balance is not that every unit has a situation when it would be the best unit to build. If a unit is the best 95% of the time then it's OP just because people can use it to hedge their bets.

For basic combat balance units need to have an average effectiveness measured by how well they do for cost against other units. Eg if a unit beats 50% of the other for .5 cost then the other 50% of the units should beat it for .5 cost. Or if a unit beats 33% of the units for .8 cost then the other 66% should beat it for .4 cost. This is just a simplification, all units will beat all other units with different cost ratios.

This type of formula makes hard counters possible which add to unit choice. It takes into account the flexibility of a unit.

Of course how units interact when mixed and the strategic importance of where a unit can go and how fast it can get there will muddy this a bit. Even if you had a perfect formula which used all of the stats to predict how much cost each unit will make vs another unit and balance the costs accordingly the fast units would be OP. You'd need some kind of focusability number to determine how fast units can respond and defend. Then you'd need something to compare all possible armies for cost vs each other.

Your formula seems to just be comparing each unit to the others without taking into account a lot of stats and how well they will do vs each other for cost. This will make the game balanced only if you stick to soft counters which would make the game boring imo as there wouldn't be much choice between units.

[hoijui]

btw, i will try the game, it sounds interesting, from your description. i also like SA.

[Wingflier]

Your formula seems to just be comparing each unit to the others without taking into account a lot of stats and how well they will do vs each other for cost.

Lol are you suggesting an equation that you have to perform over 600 times on every unit to see how well it would do against every other particular unit and then dividing by the total amount of units to get the final unit cost?

Sure the equation isn't perfect, as I said before, this is where playtesting comes in. You seem to think that just because its not the "perfect equation" that you just shouldn't use it at all. You are completely ignoring the fact that though the equation isn't perfect, the amount of consistency it establishes and the way it connects units to one another in cost makes the balance a whole lot better than in pure "guess and check" mods.

Also, if anything, your argument supports using an equation over guess and check. Because while using Tired's equation may not compare units together to way you would like it to do, how much better job do you think a human being can, in his mind, instantly compare over 600 units together at once whenever tweaking individual units.

So thank you for the support of using equations.

This will make the game balanced only if you stick to soft counters which would make the game boring imo as there wouldn't be much choice between units.

I disagree. A mod without equations will create the soft counter situations you are talking about. Because, once again, the human mind can not instantaneously compare over 600 units and their effectiveness and costs together at once whenever tweaking individual units. This is why in popular mods, the same units and strategies are used time and time again. Why some units are OP, and why some units are way UP/not worth building at all.

I agree, BA is more about out spamming the enemy and less about thinking, strategies and tactics. In most cases, it does have units which are designed to counter other units, but the problem is the costs, time to get the units out there and how effective they will be when you can just out spam cheap units to win.

Wing

[[Krogoth86]]

@Wingflier:
Welcome to the equation balance discussion...
Maybe ask a mod to split stuff so you keep a thread which actually is about your mod...

When talking about this topic though:
First of all stop calling the equations you used "complex". It's kind of a insult towards pretty much anyone having even slightly depper math skills. "Not self-evident" does not result in "complex"...

You imo also should be more aware of the weaknesses your method has and that are quite some (not that tuning things "by hand" wouldn't). The most basic hint I can give you when talking about this probably also is the most severe one and a bit hard to explain: Using a system like yours limits you as you lose the ability to "choose" / set up something the way you want it to be. It's hard to give an example for this with little words but e.g. let's look at the Area of Effect for weapons. You sure have some fancy variable for it but you totally lose the control to "choose". AoE strongly depends on the situation, the kind and number of enemies you choose just as things like what tech level stuff is at and so on and on. It's simply not possible for any (!) equation to give you a straight result no matter how complex it is. That's simply because this is about something you just cannot calculate: It's a decision you as designer of your game have to make!

You have to analyse which unit combos it might face, how close they'll be together, how good the unit will perform on maps with narrow places units have to pass through (so it won't get OP when just considering AoE balance on flat & open maps). When you've done that you have to DECIDE what exact purpose your unit should have and you afterwards have to balance all your variables in a way things fit. This simply is a decision and YOU have to make it - no equation will or can do that for you...

So you see the approach you use kinda simplifies a lot of things. It also gives you a bit of the feeling of just having one unit. Well to explain this you can imagine the "one unit" as a cube and you sort of convert the costs to build that unit into "experience points" like for a RPG which you spend on certain attributes until you've used all of them. Range increase might leave you with no more points for health & speed so you now have an artillery. In the end it's just the same unit as a tank though with a different appearance and the stats being split in a different way...

This in the end isn't a bad thing but you should realize that this approach isn't BETTER but just DIFFERENT. That certain units in games like BA don't make sense in lots of situations isn't a bad thing from the start (while I agree BA has its balance flaws you also should consider that the map choice for most BA games is very onesided and preferates only certain units so things are not that bad as you describe them). The units often have special and "unique" strengths playing out in specific situations what's not possible for your equation system as it doesn't allow abnormality from the concept of "spending points on unit stats" as you could come up with like an infinity of game situations you'd have to spend your points on. That's why you just end up with a few of them to in the worst case just have a rough "average" of certain gameplay mechanics. Again this is not bad but just a different approach so there's no superiority of one of the approaches in a general matter...

You now of course can say that a system where certain units only make sense in certain, rather special situations is dull but that's just your personal flavour then...

Oh btw - I don't know if you fixed it in V1.1 but that TLL T1 "Bug" K-Bot shoots some ugly OTA projectiles...

[Jazcash]

Could somebody with a resolution bigger than 1440*900 take some nice screenshots of this mod for me? I'll pay in cookies.

[Otherside]

Could somebody with a resolution bigger than 1440*900 take some nice screenshots of this mod for me? I'll pay in cookies.

why its full of 3do units and looks like BA O_o

[Jazcash]

Could somebody with a resolution bigger than 1440*900 take some nice screenshots of this mod for me? I'll pay in cookies.

why its full of 3do units and looks like BA O_o

The load screen he has atm he did in Paint, I'm making load screens for new mods.

[Gota]

Krogoth,no offense but your clueless.
It's nothing like playing with one unit...that is a ridiculous statement that only shows how little thought you have given the subject matter and/or how little you understand it.

[aegis]

there are too many variables you don't take into account in the equation, so it cannot achieve perfect balance.

any equation would also be subject to testing and hand-tweaking, *just like* manual balancing.

[Gota]

I agree.
But how about a ratio of 100/101 when you compare unit usages statistically..That's infinitely far from perfect yet is extremely satisfactory.

[Google_Frog]

To summarize, you should play Supreme Legacy primarily because it is much more balanced than the mod you happen to be playing right now.

Well I the impression that he wasn't going to manual balance from that statement, that or he thinks I'm playing BA.

Your formula seems to just be comparing each unit to the others without taking into account a lot of stats and how well they will do vs each other for cost.

Lol are you suggesting an equation that you have to perform over 600 times on every unit to see how well it would do against every other particular unit and then dividing by the total amount of units to get the final unit cost?

Sure the equation isn't perfect, as I said before, this is where playtesting comes in. You seem to think that just because its not the "perfect equation" that you just shouldn't use it at all. You are completely ignoring the fact that though the equation isn't perfect, the amount of consistency it establishes and the way it connects units to one another in cost makes the balance a whole lot better than in pure "guess and check" mods.

Also, if anything, your argument supports using an equation over guess and check. Because while using Tired's equation may not compare units together to way you would like it to do, how much better job do you think a human being can, in his mind, instantly compare over 600 units together at once whenever tweaking individual units.

So thank you for the support of using equations.

I'm saying that using an equation may be possible but comparing unit stats isn't the way to do it. It would need to compare every unit interaction which would take a while and lots of work to set up.

This will make the game balanced only if you stick to soft counters which would make the game boring imo as there wouldn't be much choice between units.

I disagree. A mod without equations will create the soft counter situations you are talking about. Because, once again, the human mind can not instantaneously compare over 600 units and their effectiveness and costs together at once whenever tweaking individual units. This is why in popular mods, the same units and strategies are used time and time again. Why some units are OP, and why some units are way UP/not worth building at all.

This may be true in the popular mod but it's wrong for others.

[aegis]

To summarize, you should play Supreme Legacy primarily because it is much more balanced than the mod you happen to be playing right now.

I beg to differ!

[VonGratz]

the amount of consistency it establishes and the way it connects units to one another in cost makes the balance a whole lot better than in pure "guess and check" mods.

This make sense for me, although the formula not is perfect can give hints to improve something in general shape for modeling balance.
I will test it some day versus Alte. Pratt wargaming rules of WW2 , that, for that age was fantastically acurate.
Also I agreed that terrain, and information - via radar, scouts, etc - , or the deny of - counter measures - and surprise, can change any intended balance in battlefield, but the COST BALANCE of an unit, IMHO can be better determined in that way.
Right tactics with the stuff the "race" is equiped, also can help to win a battle.
One of my races in the new mod Im doing, have a lot of medium/long range weapons to weak the enemy - with a great spread radius, gas clouds etc..before the weaker armored, but faster attackers come into fight to destroy the rest.

[[Krogoth86]]

Krogoth,no offense but your clueless.
It's nothing like playing with one unit...that is a ridiculous statement that only shows how little thought you have given the subject matter and/or how little you understand it.

Well you seem not to have understood what I was trying to say. My point was about giving a picture of the "equation method" applying simplifications and to visualise this I came up with the 0815 cube-looking unit which gets stats determined by the equation which is the principle for all units and is the way the unit is going to turn out in the end. This system doesn't allow e.g. units with highly specifical purpose with kinda rare situations of good use...

So you of course don't play with just "one unit" but I found the way of our cubic unit which gets its stats in sort of a RPG manner quite demonstrative for what I was trying to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough - if you've got a better symbolization for it go ahead...

[j5mello]

Did you fix TLL not having ships?

as they didn't in 1.0 and i don't see it in the changelog for 1.1