Fix Brawler Swarm Gayness

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 15 Sep 2005, 07:22

Maelstrom wrote:But can only be used once. Now diggz is vunerable against another attack, which could be there in a matter of minutes. So good for a one off, (and funny as hell) but now your screwed if another attack comes.

An attack that size takes alot of res out of a player. Another small attack could be there in a little while, but realisticly, how much does a commander help agaisnt a brawlie rush in CPIA anyways? For the cost of one commander he took out TONNES of res in fliers.

IMSabbel · Post by **IMSabbel** » 15 Sep 2005, 12:33

Maelstrom wrote:But can only be used once. Now diggz is vunerable against another attack, which could be there in a matter of minutes. So good for a one off, (and funny as hell) but now your screwed if another attack comes.

Well
i guess the points is: Sitting on your ass and doing nothing on a ressource paradise like core prime for minutes will result in getting defeated, sooner or later.

In those "few minutes", the other could also build a couple of krogoths , 30 goliaths, 10 warlords or all other kinds of nasty surprises.

Not to mention that when you see "enemy goes mass brawler", you can just fark out l2 fighters like crazy... you will match his production rate, and if you intercept him on his side of the map, he wont do much damage.

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 15 Sep 2005, 15:27

I usuaully fark out lv1s, the sheer mass of them makes them a better choice in a fast reaction situation...

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 15 Sep 2005, 18:40

What actually happened is that after the masterfull commander bomb, our opponents were entirely occupied with krogoths, and never sent another effective brawler swarm.

Defenses will never win the game, they just keep you alive and intact so that you can win by attacking. Which about twenty krogoths after this movie, we did.

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 15 Sep 2005, 21:12

Sheekel wrote:i wish people wouldnt rip on starcraft....it had its fallacies, just like TA does. Its still a good game, physics-defying or not! TA is far better, though

I wrote/showed nothing wrong about Starcrap... Starcrap is a highly respected RTS, known to be well balanced and people don't complaint about the Mutalisk swarms. I was only comparing the Mutalisk swarms to the Brawler swarms.

[Edit]... Wait i did... But that was funny info that deserved to be shown. I still have some fond memories of it. I won my first 2 (and only 2) tournaments of it i've ever made when i was at the university.

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 15 Sep 2005, 22:11

I hate it when people complain about how there no good defense to a bunch of different things. The best defense is a good offense. If you are porcing, you WILL be overwhelmed by the units sent against you, because you will not be able to kill them before they kill some structures. The solution is to take the fight to them. Defensive strategies are inherently flawed, because you have to equally defend all points, but your opponent can focus their attack at one point, and win.

I also hate it when people complain that xta is a porcing mod, and then complain that porcing didn't work against goliaths or brawlers or krogoths. Porcing is not supposed to work against a dedicated assault force, defenses are supposed to simply ward off raiding parties, so that you can focus your energy on killing your opponent.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 15 Sep 2005, 22:25

Lindir The Green wrote:I hate it when people complain about how there no good defense to a bunch of different things. The best defense is a good offense. If you are porcing, you WILL be overwhelmed by the units sent against you, because you will not be able to kill them before they kill some structures. The solution is to take the fight to them. Defensive strategies are inherently flawed, because you have to equally defend all points, but your opponent can focus their attack at one point, and win.

I also hate it when people complain that xta is a porcing mod, and then complain that porcing didn't work against goliaths or brawlers or krogoths. Porcing is not supposed to work against a dedicated assault force, defenses are supposed to simply ward off raiding parties, so that you can focus your energy on killing your opponent.

Porcing works excessively well in XTA if you seal yourself in behind dragons teeth and then outartillery your opponents.

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 15 Sep 2005, 22:54

Offensive units can't defeat gols or krogs. They walk right on by. Porcing is the only way to beat gols and krogs.

Same for Brawlers. Thing its tough to defend against brawlers in a base? Try it in the field. Impossible. Brawler swarms win all.

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 16 Sep 2005, 00:16

SwiftSpear wrote:Porcing works excessively well in XTA if you seal yourself in behind dragons teeth and then outartillery your opponents.

Then it's not really porcing, it is attacking from your base.

I didn't mean that you should defend against brawler swarms from the field, I meant that you should kill your opponent before they have a chance to brawler swarm.

P.S.
I really don't think brawler swarms can be gay, as they don't have a gender...

PauloMorfeo · Post by **PauloMorfeo** » 16 Sep 2005, 17:28

tanelorn wrote:... Thing its tough to defend against brawlers in a base? Try it in the field. ...

That's true. That's mainly why i was one of the many persons who requested the Gunships to be downgraded, a while ago. Gunships were making balanced fights against the anti-Gunship defenses.

Some time after, they downgraded the Gunship's HP and increased the fighters damage. Now, Gunship easily loose to dedicated anti-Gunship defenses but still remains the issue that we can't have an extensive base defended against Gunships. But i think that this (how it is now) is how it should remain.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 16 Sep 2005, 17:29

and again if u guys don't like the XTA balance there are other balance mods out there. so go try them out..

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 16 Sep 2005, 18:48

And again anyone who tries to host non-XTA ends up waiting forever for just 1 other person to join his game. It's nobody's fault but the wimps who aren't willing to download other mods, but still the incentive is not there to play other mods when nobody else will join.

So... since TA Spring comes with XTA, that is our focus.

Gunships being good against ground targets is fine. But being good against anti-air fighters and against mobile flakkers and even against stationary flakkers is an oversight and gets exploited in every game.

In real life gunships are doomed if there's a jet fighter in the area attacking them. The idea is that you have your own air cover to compliment the gunships. XTA doesn't give you much reason to compliment your Brawlers with anything at all because they can take so much punishment from AA.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 16 Sep 2005, 18:58

tanelorn wrote:And again anyone who tries to host non-XTA ends up waiting forever for just 1 other person to join his game. It's nobody's fault but the wimps who aren't willing to download other mods, but still the incentive is not there to play other mods when nobody else will join.

well if all the complainers would not just join XTA games and just stick with other mods, some games could be played. But no1 even dares to host other mods it seems..

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 16 Sep 2005, 19:02

I play OTA all the time... if you start your game and post the link to the FU file and explain how to install it... you get people trying it out all the time.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 16 Sep 2005, 21:27

Brawler swarms aren't hard to defend in base or in field, just push a 1 to 1 fighter ratio at them and they will be down before they even do signifigant damage. The trick is getting your fighters on them BEFORE they are at thier target.

Tanelorn. Gunships lose EVERY fight against fighters. A group of 100 brawlies will kill maby 2 attacking fighters at the same number. Fighters also cost a fraction of the ammount. The other day I had a player push waves of fighters at me just so he could kill enough to push his brawlies through. THAT is the only way to kill fighters, brawlies do nothing.

Linder: The "outartillery your opponent" is so they can't just line 30 berthas up outside your base and blow the crap out of you right over your dragon tooth wall. The only effective way to kill a line of bertha's forming is to put lots of artillery that shoots the builders down before the builders can compleate thier build. You're artillery is a defence measure primarily, not an offencive measure.

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 16 Sep 2005, 21:31

Its not a question of wether one unit can kill another. It's a question of wether they can kill them before they eat up your field units or your base. It takes forever for fighters to kill brawlers.

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 16 Sep 2005, 21:31

Offensive units can easily defeat Goliaths, Krogoths, and Brawler swarms by denyinng your opponent the resources necessary to build them. Whether you are being attacked by 10 goliaths, 60 bulldogs, or 100 brawlers you are toast because you allowed your opponent to collect and use a massive amount of resources.

NOT because of an imbalanced mod, because of your own poor play.

Tanelorn is a poor player who consistently loses. If the XTA is changed, he will just end up whining about different units. He loses because of a lack of skill.

This is not to say that XTA is perfect, but to find the lack of balance in XTA, you have to ask skilled players. Poor players who are inveterate whiners will complain just as much if the mod is perfectly balanced.

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 16 Sep 2005, 21:34

I always play on team games. If the enemy is making brawler swarms, it's not just me who lacks skill according to your statement. My whole team must lack skill, including many of the posters on this board who have been my teammates on earlier games.

Simple fact: when you see a brawler swarm,you've lost the game. If you are able to raid the enemy base and kill his energy and metal, preventing him from making brawlers, you've won the game anyway.

So what's your point?

IMSabbel · Post by **IMSabbel** » 16 Sep 2005, 22:08

tanelorn wrote:I always play on team games. If the enemy is making brawler swarms, it's not just me who lacks skill according to your statement. My whole team must lack skill, including many of the posters on this board who have been my teammates on earlier games.

Simple fact: when you see a brawler swarm,you've lost the game. If you are able to raid the enemy base and kill his energy and metal, preventing him from making brawlers, you've won the game anyway.

So what's your point?

One question: do you play under the nick devilchaser?

HellToupee · Post by **HellToupee** » 17 Sep 2005, 10:25

with brawlers you offensive units are ineffective vs them, they simply fly right past them, also defensive lines are to, they just fly past them into the heart of ur base which unless ur some porker wont have suffient defenses to down them quickly, Brawlers are highly mobile strong and not that difficult to produce, 1v1 fighters cant seem to shoot them down, i had 3 of my brawlers meet 4 fighters the fighters were all shot down by the brawlers. You can get a few up quickly and raid an opponents expansions and there isnt nothing he can do if he hasnt invested heavly in air.

Spring RTS Engine

Fix Brawler Swarm Gayness