Porcing?

[cyclerboy]

how many krogies can you count?
http://fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=1476

[Kuroneko]

acording to my less than scientific calculations, almost 800

-edit-

just read the txt, I was close :)

[SwiftSpear]

I've done about 200 in an acctual multiplayer game. Also I should note that it took less then 2 hours.

[Triaxx2]

See, the thing about playing with a porcer as a partner, is that you should be using the same base. You build the units to attack the opposition, while he concentrates entirely on building those massively hard to smash bases. This way, if you're attack fails, you can fall back into the shared base, and he'll hold them off for a time until you can rebuild your forces, and strike out again.

[Warlord Zsinj]

As I've said before, and as paulo (Eventually ) said, porcing is one of the weakest strategies available to a player.

This is mostly because of the resource system of Spring/TA. As paulo said, it is no longer like Warcraft, etc, because it is not how many resources you have, but how much you are earning. The more resources you have, the more units you can afford (And the more expansion you can afford to sustain, hence allowing you further resources).

Therefore, a player who is porcing draws a line in the sand, and says "this is mine, and this is yours". The only person this helps is his enemy. Because of the very nature of TA defenses, you can't afford to defend a large territory. If you do, you spread your defenses too thin, and they would be easily overcome. Because of this, a porcer is forced to draw the line in the sand close to his starting point, where his defenses can support each other, and be strong enough to fight off the enemy.
Once a player does that, its just a matter of outproducing and overwhelming him.

The other reason porcing is such a weak strategy is because of the nature of defenses themselves. They are rooted in the ground. Unless it is a map which has very defined choke points (Large Divide, Azure Rampart, etc), defenses are inferior to mobile units in almost every way. My enemy knows exactly where my defenses are as soon as he spots them. It's not like I can just pick them up and move them. Mobile units are constantly on the move. If the battle sways away from my defense line, I can't move my units to compensate; those units become a pretty paperweights (for like... a xerox warehouse... ). If I have beat back the enemy offensive, I know that my enemy is reeling from a large blow. Those defenses can't immediately be geared for a counter-attack on my weakened enemy. If I build my defenses on one side of my base, and see my enemy coming from the other side (which any relatively smart opponent would do once he knows the location of your main defence line), I can't move those defenses to the new position. Even if I am smart enough to realise that there are numerous clear entry points to my base, and decide to porc all of them up, I spread myself thinly over each point.

Investing in mobile units solves all these problems, usually for a similar cost.

Which is not to say defenses have no place in Spring; defense installations have a clear role.

But porcing generally equals death.

[Tim Blokdijk]

Warlord Zsinj, the effectivness of procing is very map dependent in Total Annihilation.
Procing on metal map's can be a great tactic for example.
But a proc will lose on greenhaven if you spead out.

[FireCrack]

Also you can draw "The line" right by the enemies base :D.

[PauloMorfeo]

...
well you simply cannot defend if you expand you base everywhere, your defences get spread thin and one only has to pick them off one by one. ...

If he is doing that, he is not porking but is, instead, raiding your expansions.

...
If they hide in a corner behind dtwalls hills etc and just hope to hell everyone leaves himalone, if they are left alone they win simple as that, ...

If ... if they are left alone until when? If until they win then ... yes, they'll win.

...
Had this happen on mars map, 3 player ffa me and the other guy got bogged down with each other, ...

That's the problems with FFA games. I don't like them much. I disliked them more than now because i now see that as a luck/random factor of FFA games which go completely out of control of my skills. Also to note, by that discription, the 3rd player did not won because of porking but because of you 2 spending your strengths fighting each other. Don't play FFA if you really dislike that or learn to accept that as part of FFAs.

[IMSabbel]

Yeah. FFA is just gambling...

If you have bad luck, you get both your neigbours attacking you at the same time (and of course, even if you repell them, they will _both_ come back to your base because they see it as an easy target...), if you are lucky, you get left alone and rape them with a krogoth...

[mongus]

Also you can draw "The line" right by the enemies base :D.

you!!! you! you!!!!!

Will die First!!!!

[SwiftSpear]

This is why I really don't like FFA's. The player who loses is the player who attracts the most attention, not the player who has a terrible build or weak stratigey or poor micro. I tend to early rush, and then settle in to a game of attrition where I rely on constant damage and a fast economy build to allow me to eventually mass faster then my enemy can.

I love Goli's and Sumos in XTA because the damn things screw over porcers like nothing else (I refuse to admit that XTA krogoths exist they are so unbalanced) If I DO porce, I porce behind gunship and fighter defences so I can always get the maximum response into any area at a moment's knowtice.

[Warlord Zsinj]

I did mention map dependencies in that post, Tim.

And yes, metal maps completely invalidate porcing rules, because expanding is unnecessary on them.

But then, that's why I don't like metal maps, and don't play them. There's about as much strategy on a metal map as there is in a snow-fight in the middle of the himalayas.

[Tim Blokdijk]

Yes, you did.

I actualy liked to play metal maps against a proc.
The guy would build a massive base.
Specialy on "over crude water"
And I would still own it

[Triaxx2]

I have to say Warlord, I don't disagree, but I don't agree either. Porcing alone, is a bad idea, I'll admit that, but with a partner who knows what he's supposed to do? That's an entirely different story.

And alot of these ideas were with the comparatively smaller unit limits of TA. With Spring limits, it's entirely possible to bite off a much larger piece of the map, and hold onto it, while building an army behind those defenses. As well as the fact, that gathering resources functions much differently here. I think it's too early to be judging if it's still an ineffective tactic or not.

Assuming that it's not, then we've returned to the standard aggressive, assault game. It's not RTS, it's RTA. Real-time attack. There's no strategy to it, beyond attack, attack, attack. Boring. If I wanted to play that, I'd pick up an FPS.

You don't want to porc? Fine, don't. But at least playing a porcer forces you to think about your attacks, you have to find the weakness, and use units that can exploit it. Sure you can just attack, but you're going to get cut to pieces for a long while before you can break through, and with energy being the easier resource to acquire, you're only fueling your opponents economy.

[HellToupee]

See, the thing about playing with a porcer as a partner, is that you should be using the same base. You build the units to attack the opposition, while he concentrates entirely on building those massively hard to smash bases. This way, if you're attack fails, you can fall back into the shared base, and he'll hold them off for a time until you can rebuild your forces, and strike out again.

Well one must expand to get resources its unless its a metal map, and in many games ive been in the same place as a porcer however it dosnt matter what you do if yourteam mate just porcers and the other team both attacks they will break through unless there is some nasty choke point.

[Warlord Zsinj]

I certainly wouldn't want to get partnered with a porcer, triaxx. A porcer in 9/10 situations, would be a nuisance, not offering any support in terms of their attack, and only protecting their little corner. The only time such a partner would be useful would be in maps where their start position is at a particularly essential choke point, or if they are directly between myself and the enemy, and even then the strategy has the ineherent weaknesses mentioned above.

Assuming that it's not, then we've returned to the standard aggressive, assault game. It's not RTS, it's RTA. Real-time attack. There's no strategy to it, beyond attack, attack, attack. Boring. If I wanted to play that, I'd pick up an FPS.

You are twisting my words. I am not advocating a solely offensive game; obviously base building is important. It would be the same as me accusing you of wanting to play SimCity, not TA.
Besides, war is attack, attack, attack. It is certainly not boring, it is the premise of the entire game we are playing. Defense certainly comes into it, and is by no means obsolete, but victory is obtained through offensive manuevers.

... And besides, the best defense is always a good offense

You don't want to porc? Fine, don't. But at least playing a porcer forces you to think about your attacks, you have to find the weakness, and use units that can exploit it. Sure you can just attack, but you're going to get cut to pieces for a long while before you can break through, and with energy being the easier resource to acquire, you're only fueling your opponents economy.

It is irrelevant whether I want to porc or not. I enjoy making impenetrable bases as much as the next person. However, I also realise that porcing is a weak strategy, and in doing so, I will lose. Playing a porcer (a real porcer, and not someone who is just heavy on defense) is generally boring, because as soon as he begins to porc, I know I have won. Sure, it might take me a while to finally kill him (probably not), but the end result is inevitable. I'm more or less wasting my time by killing him, because it isn't me who is delivering the death blow, it is him. I wan't to outwit my opponent, I don't want him preempting me by using a dead-before-you-start strategy.

[NOiZE]

the reason why porcing is used a lot now adays on spring is only because almost every map has fast amounts of metal, and the ones with less metal hardly get played, because.... the lack of metal.... IMO it will just take time be4 most ppl will see that high metal maps aren't fun.

[HellToupee]

the only thing a porcer forces you to think about in the attack is when, since they focus so much on establishing production all u need to do is amass enough and rush in. Defences unless at chokepoints can be breached quite easily by focusing on a single spot, all you have to do is drive past them.

[aGorm]

I agree with NOiZE. Admitadly, some of my maps arn't exactly empty of metal, but they dont have absurd amounts. And theres loads of good maps they arn't played just because people go, hay its hard to get goin on that map i cant just build a krog straight away.

(Played a metal map last night for first time... I won (being a porker) but i cant say it was fun. It was infact no effort. I just build a huge base, made a new one in the middle, ended up with +500 M and 10000s of E and then just build a load of labs guarded by farks so as to churn out hundreds of Mav's in 5 mins then wandered down with my allies and kicked ass. It was to easy, and almost no fun.
My Fav game i lost on shaw to shaw... I had loads of M and E coming in, but i was because I worked to get that econamy! Not becasue it was just there!

Lets all play low metal maps more often yhe?

aGorm

[PauloMorfeo]

the reason why porcing is used a lot now adays on spring is only because almost every map has fast amounts of metal, and the ones with less metal hardly get played, because.... the lack of metal...

That's right.