UAC and multiple datadirs in Windows, pt 2

[smoth]

yes, af let me go round and round with you. It is like arguing with a brick wall, I hereby declare you king of argument sit on your throne lonely and elite

Hang on. Again, what Tobi said, but in different words:
The tutorial should work exactly the same. The only difference should be that IF you put things into the other supported folders, that will work too.

I must have missed something rad, how will the install process be simpler? I still have to explain to them what the directory is?
http://cs.selu.edu/~ssmith/GUNDAM/howto.html
This is my tutorial. right now, I show them their spring directory with the mods folder. Is there something new that I am missing here?

Tobi, you do not have Vista and I am telling you, this is not how it works.

Actually I do have vista

Yeah, my dad has vista, I used his laptop on a roadtrip to do gundam work. Of course because my home computer is not running vista obviously af is more educated then I. Even though I setup my dad's laptop:P

My key suspicion is that af is running some sort of hyper paranoid security settings.

[Pxtl]

Well, ArchiveMover is a big help. But the fact is that there is no right answer. The "correct" answer is to put it in the user folder, but that solution is terribly supported by Windows. Windows has been awful at the multi-user paradigm for so long it fails when users try to embrace it.

My solution? Union them. User folder gets priority. Installer should ask if ArchiveMover should install new stuff into the user or into the main folder. Is it a pain? Yes. But if you're not willing to do that, then leave it as-is.

[smoth]

Windows has been awful at the multi-user paradigm for so long it fails when users try to embrace it.

I completely agree.

[el_matarife]

Using your tutorial as a reason not to do this is a really bad idea since it would take you all of an HOUR to fix that, and honestly doing it "the right way" is going to make it tons easier for anyone reading your tutorial on Vista.

Seriously, did any of you arguing against this change read any of the documentation I have posted about this stuff over the last few months? There's a lot of good reasons to follow the best practice design, and basically every PC game has been doing so over the past few months or will be doing so in the future. If you think this problem will eventually go away, you're crazy since Microsoft is most definitely going to carry this forward to Windows 7 and I don't think you can stick with XP forever. Mac OS, Linux, all the BSDs and Unix based OSes already enforce user space and system space separation, so it really is a good think Microsoft got with it and is forcing us to clean up our act on their OS as well.

[Pxtl]

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it. I'm saying they should do it right or not at all. Simply moving the folder will hurt/confuse single-user systems, and also will waste space when you have multiple users sharing a spring folder.

The files in the user space should be treated as supplemental. So the user can have the core mods (BA, Gundam, etc) from the installer plonked into their Program Files\Spring\Mods folder, but a stack of mutators and a stack of KDR_11k's mods are found in userland\Spring\Mods

The Spring engine treating those two folders as the exact same place for reading purposes, giving priority to the userland folder in the event of a name collision.

See? Backwards-compatible, single-copy-friendly, intuitive advantage of the Program Files approach, and also the multi-user advantages of the user approach.

edit: this is me reading the farking thread. reading is FUNdamental. Yeah, that's exactly what they want to do. Totally go for it. Smoth, you can still tell users to dump Gundam mod file into Program Files\Spring\Mods.

[el_matarife]

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it. I'm saying they should do it right or not at all. Simply moving the folder will hurt/confuse single-user systems, and also will waste space when you have multiple users sharing a spring folder.

The files in the user space should be treated as supplemental. So the user can have the core mods (BA, Gundam, etc) from the installer plonked into their Program Files\Spring\Mods folder, but a stack of mutators and a stack of KDR_11k's mods are found in userland\Spring\Mods

If you actually READ the thread you'd notice we were talking about putting maps, mods, and AIs in the user area that's shared between all the users on that PC and only keeping replays, chatlogs, and other files that are more per user in each user's Documents\My Games\ folder.

Edit: Whoops you actually read the thread now. Still my point stands, if you guys actually READ the documentation on reasons why and best practices you'd have a much better idea and wouldn't be arguing from mistaken ideas of how you think it works.

[smoth]

I have read the thread as well matarlife and I maintain that the windows user file structure was made for applications and NOT games. I also maintain that if the program files shit is an issue that you should install to C:\games\spring\ and be done with it. Why ISN'T that a viable solution versus subscribing to that dogmatic microsoft user space?

the microsoft suggested file structure /user/ is endemic to the corporate one size fits all mentality. many games do not follow it and I hate when many of the games do this.

[Pxtl]

I have read the thread as well matarlife and I maintain that the windows user file structure was made for applications and NOT games. I also maintain that if the program files shit is an issue that you should install to C:\games\spring\ and be done with it. Why ISN'T that a viable solution versus subscribing to that dogmatic microsoft user space?

the microsoft suggested file structure /user/ is endemic to the corporate one size fits all mentality. many games do not follow it and I hate when many of the games do this.

Smoth, I know it's hard to let go of the DOS days where the whole HDD was your own empire... I know I was still petulantly installing everything into custom paths for years and years.

But the fact is the operating system was meant to work a certain way, and things get confusing if you don't do that. Notice how, in the MS file managers, C:\ is several clicks away? (desktop\my computer\c:) while the documents folder is top-level? Things like that. Everything in Program Files is managed by the OS. Theoretically, if it weren't for badly-made programs, the user should never ever have to look into the Program Files folder. Eventually I got used to it, because I knew that anything in c:\misc was mine and I could delete manually, while anything in Program Files or other system folders was meant to be handled via the add/remove programs screen. Made managing files easier.

Let go. It's just too much trouble to fight against your own operating system, and things get a little easier when you let things work the way they were designed to (the fact that most apps don't let you choose which start menu folder to live in is fscking unforgivable, though, since moving them means the uninstaller misses the start menu).

Really, I always think the best approach is to make sure your app can run from a portable environment as well as installed, and provide it in a .zip form in addition to the installer. The .zip form makes sure that guys like Smoth are happy, and the installer form plays nicely with a fully setup multi-user operating system. Underneath, they're the same files (not maintaining two branches), but some people like to be able to just delete an app when they're done with it, or move files around, or whatever, instead of trusting an installer/uninstaller package that does unknown stuff.

[imbaczek]

Haven't read the thread - my short opinion goes like this: if it allows me to union several dirs into one, I'm happy (having three different spring trees and not having to duplicate a couple hundred megs to each is win.)

(note: see also http://icculus.org/physfs/.)

[smoth]

when my operating system corrupts it's self and I lose all my files because I have this shit shoved down my throat BY SAID OPERATING SYSTEM I will personally rage you people.

Eh, whatever, smoth is an idiot and ignorant. I understand that system restore fuck your c drive and that you lot want to follow the Microsoft way. That is fine, I hope you guys all get a virus that fucks your windows and you lose your user directory only having your games installed on the !c drive. So that you have all of your games and none of those files. I hope you enjoy backing up some megalithic directory of random crap and redownloading everything when your c: drive fails. In fact I hope you have a whole raid array setup to maintain system integrity should one of your hds fail only to have windows protect you from yourself all the while not protecting you from when the OS fucks it's self.

I give up, how dare I question your wisdom. I am done here. The change will happen, I tried and I will personally laugh if your shit gets corrupted. I can appreciate that you are using the shared space I understand that but I still strongly object to the use of the user space at all. Said user space is always lost when I backup my computer because the user space is on the hd with the OS that gets fucked as all windows installs eventually do.

-smoth out

[AF]

I would think that when an operating system corrupts, its the system space not the user space that is most affected.

See? Backwards-compatible, single-copy-friendly, intuitive advantage of the Program Files approach, and also the multi-user advantages of the user approach.

What people are also forgetting is that this program files specification microsoft are using is not something they introduced with Vista. Microsoft has been saying this since windows 2000 and they've been ignored. Now that they've gone and enforced the good programming security practice by default, all the programs that flouted what microsoft are now paying the price for flouting the rules.

I would also say that you should provide an installer for anyone who needs to actually use those directions smoth. Archive mover should do the job.

However, there's nothing stopping us adding a command line flag to archive mover that makes it open the default directory in windows explorer, that we can then link to via the start menu, thus completely negating all arguments about making support harder and vastly improving the existing support steps.

No more navigating to folders, just "click on "my shared content" in the start menu and "right click paste". In my opinion this should be added to archive mover regardless of the outcome of this thread and whatever solution is used.

[el_matarife]

Really, I always think the best approach is to make sure your app can run from a portable environment as well as installed, and provide it in a .zip form in addition to the installer. The .zip form makes sure that guys like Smoth are happy, and the installer form plays nicely with a fully setup multi-user operating system.

We would still need to make Spring only use XML file or something else for configuration instead of the registry, which I think is a decent idea anyway but I'm sure it would be more work than just moving paths around for whoever ends up implementing it.

Also I look forward to Smoth trying Linux when he eventually has to give up XP. If he think MS is dictatorial about paths he's clearly never used any *nix OS.

[AF]

Allowing file based settings in windows would allow a small wave of new lobby based features.

[Forboding Angel]

Do NOT force me to use userdir's and whatnot.

Spring is installed on a seperate Harddrive for a very good reason. Also, do NOT make it a 2 way split. THis would break sever auto updaters, and you honestly expect the user to know where to point an installer to the mods folder. A barnd new spring user? Stop making this crap harder than it needs to be and stick it in c:/spring or c:/games/spring

It's idiotic the way that you guys are going about doing this, so I'll repeat.

ANY AND ALL PROBLEMS MAGICALLY DISSAPPEAR WHEN YOU HAVE THE GAME INSTALL SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN PROGRAM FILES A LA C:\GAMES\SPRING

[AF]

I did say it would only affect new users and it could be made an installer option too. The emphasis being on the word optional =p

[imbaczek]

ANY AND ALL PROBLEMS MAGICALLY DISSAPPEAR WHEN YOU HAVE THE GAME INSTALL SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN PROGRAM FILES A LA C:\GAMES\SPRING

the problem is, this doesn't matter.

[el_matarife]

THis would break sever auto updaters, and you honestly expect the user to know where to point an installer to the mods folder.

Or you could just check for the mods directory with the functionality Windows provides for you if you read the documentation in MSDN, I recommend reading this article: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... S.85).aspx
The commonly written to files are going to go to the shared userspace, Spring itself will stay in program files.

Stop making this crap harder than it needs to be and stick it in c:/spring or c:/games/spring

Frankly you guys are all nuts if you expect us to ignore best practices BY DEFAULT. BY DEFAULT we need to be following the best practices for software installation on whatever OS we are targeting. We wouldn't ignore it on Mac OS or Linux since we'd be ridiculed, so we really should do the same thing on Windows.

If you want to customize your install folder and do it your own way at installation time that's fine, I guess that can be provided for but frankly don't expect everything to work flawlessly just like you wouldn't expect it to work flawlessly if you went with a custom directory now.

[Forboding Angel]

If you want to customize your install folder and do it your own way at installation time that's fine, I guess that can be provided for but frankly don't expect everything to work flawlessly just like you wouldn't expect it to work flawlessly if you went with a custom directory now.

WTF are you talking about???

You know what? Fine, screwit. But ADD a damn registry entry for the new location of the mods and maps folders.

This "Improvement" is a serious pain in the ass.

What exactly is the issue again???

You have Engine\content, WTF is wrong with that?

Custom directory now? I am using a custom directory, d:\spring, and it works "flawlessly" so what the hell are you talking about?

This great "Improvement" is just like the one that broke Multiple map archives. Yeah. Great freaking idea.

[Pxtl]

Really, I always think the best approach is to make sure your app can run from a portable environment as well as installed, and provide it in a .zip form in addition to the installer. The .zip form makes sure that guys like Smoth are happy, and the installer form plays nicely with a fully setup multi-user operating system.

We would still need to make Spring only use XML file or something else for configuration instead of the registry, which I think is a decent idea anyway but I'm sure it would be more work than just moving paths around for whoever ends up implementing it.

Also I look forward to Smoth trying Linux when he eventually has to give up XP. If he think MS is dictatorial about paths he's clearly never used any *nix OS.

Well, the problem is that MS-land's best practices grew organically and are relatively new, and so users and developers have a lot of productivity habits and practices that conflict with them. Unix developed its folder tree like 30 years ago, back at the start, and so has never had to bully its users to get used to a new way of doing things.

Either way, yes, I think we'd all love configs to move into a TDF file or an XML file or something. And yes, I love the idea of the search path, because it's totally up to the user. Only thing I think you'd need to make the "all in one folder" guys happy is to make sure that the ArchiveMover asks you at install time. The installer should be putting everything into Program Files, so that leaves only the archive mover and the demo files choosing which folder to dump in - if those questions are asked at install-time, then it would be pretty transparent to Smoth's camp, wouldn't it? You just check the box when you install saying "new files go into Spring install folder".

@FA, it's for secured-computer or multi-user environments. The Program Files folder can be locked down or even placed in read-only storage, while the user can muck about in user-land. Administrators really like this stuff, and it's important to make them happy.

Admittedly, it's not that relevant to games, which usually are going on personal computers. But still, that's the principle.

And remember, it's searching your installed folder FIRST, so you don't have to use it if you don't want to.

[Radtoo]

Haven't read the thread - my short opinion goes like this: if it allows me to union several dirs into one, I'm happy (having three different spring trees and not having to duplicate a couple hundred megs to each is win.)

Yep. Should be essentially that.