NOTA 1.82

[123vtemp]

I'm not going to bother saying how some mods lack micro, but I see a huge difference in the the type of confrontations you'll have.

i really disagree. i can do well in ba just marching my units to death because they often outrun the enemies fire. nota, they don't so you need to think how your going to kill them...

I like what is said there^^ but I do not believe in losing large amounts of m in order 2 inflict it. No matter how he said it; his point was that ur micro in battles has a big significance in nota. He who exploits the weaknesses and abilities of the units by micro will achieve far more tactical feats in nota than most other mods.

This kind of micro has not yet been matched in any other of the commonly played mods partly because they are not capable of such exploitations as they are in nota.

[Quanto042]

On the other hand, I have no problems with artillery being one of the most used ground combat units (and why shouldn't it? it has the range and firepower to make it a very effective option). If I remember correctly, artillery has been historically referred to as "the kings of battle" due to its potential to inflict disproportionate amounts of losses on the enemy.

I completely agree with Totbuae. Having actually been in the US Field Artillery, it has always disappointed me with how ineffective Artillery is in most RTS. Spamming aside, artillery should most DEFINITELY be King of Battle. If NOTA could break further from the common RTS mold (it really already has :D ) and create a truly awesomely powerful Artillery.

Maybe have it broken into Light, Heavy and Rocket?

Keep in mind, Light and Heavy should have a relatively high rate of fire. Rockets, much less so. Also rocket artillery is only useful when in the MLRS form. If its a single rocket system, it should have a VERY long range.

Just my $0.02

[Totbuae]

I share Quanto042's disappointment with arty in most RTS games. In fact, the only worthwhile artillery I've used was the one from the original Dark Reign. It had crazy range compared to everything else (~7 or 8 times the range of a tank), huge area of effect, decent damage and rate of fire and because of all of that it had a very profound psychological effect on the opponent (kinda the same effect you get in TA when you have a battery of Berthas/Timmys pounding someone into a fine paste). It was balanced by making it unable to fire blind, you had to have someone spotting; this way you can interrupt the barrage by eliminating the spotter.

[Otherside]

powerful artilery exists in rts games but for balance reasons have not been dominant range is a hard factor to balance

making it to strong totally unbalances a game OPd artilery are probably worse than overpowered raider units

range is a hard thing to balance :]

[ironized]

yeah realism and coolness aside. playing a game and getting my base exploded by arties half way across the map...


not too fun.

[123vtemp]

The veh arty is simply a bit weak in nota. The kbot units are balanced with most of the other units, but the arty has always not been a dmg dealer, but an obstacles remover or forcer of confrontations or a retreat.

A little more dmg would be better Imo. I would say some thing about it's range especially when considering t2 unit range, but that would mess up it's vulnerability 2 mid range static def units.

[Thor]

Vehicle arty is weak? If you're talking about core, I agree with you, but the arm arty is pretty much the best t1 unit arm has. It does almost the same damage/sec as a medium tank and has a range of almost 1000 with large area of effect. It is very, very difficult to deal with massed arm artillery behind a wall of rockos and zeuses. I don't know how you can say arty is weak when it is the backbone of most midgame arm armies.

[Totbuae]

Core veh arty is kinda weak but you have to remember that Core veh plants have Levs (Levelers). I assumed Pillagers were meant to take out immobile defenses and annoy mobile units to force an engagement. Then, when the enemy gets nearer, Levs, Reapers and Raiders would deal the real damage.

The other role I assumed Pillagers filled was that of a mobile mortar due to its high trajectory option (useful when fighting enemy units on or around a hill).

P.S. I agree with you, ironized, but look at it from the opposite perspective; blowing up your opponent's base from halfway across the map is tons of fun and incredibly satisfying , imho.

[ironized]

thats why i like the orbital and that, because they cost a tone..

[123vtemp]

Thor,
Hmm I drew this conclusion some time ago. It may be inaccurate now.

But as I think about it, I remember that an army with 2 tanks for every 1 arty was much more likely not 2 die; as tanks have a much faster rate of fire and much better maneuverability+ hp and armor. I am sure that 12 tanks and 6 arty would easily beat the same M worth of arty [my point is that arty is not the most effective unit for battles]. cus in game I would use more cost effective units 2 protect arty if I was using arty.

IMO as when I first started nota I though that arty should play a better role of a cheap field weapon that could deal good dmg at range but have no hp. ATM arty does not do that. and it already will miss a moving target.

I guess the Q is... do we want 2 change the style of play in nota I think it would not be a heavy effect [in a bad way] but only testing and gaming would prove it.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

the reason artillery is weak in games is because combat that just consists of shit firing into the air and then all the enemies dying is boring as. short range units should always be the mainstay because if they are not they have no purpose

[Rubenes]

the reason artillery is weak in games is because combat that just consists of shit firing into the air and then all the enemies dying is boring as. short range units should always be the mainstay because if they are not they have no purpose

I disagree with that. Artillery should be strong, but it is slow or immobile, expensive, reloads slowly, cannot fire on the move, and cannot fire accurately at moving targets. This is why tanks are still used today, and why they are used more often as artillery. Look at the BB. It has many of these disadvantages, and still people use them often.

BTW, I'll be making the tutorial in text form first, so we have something to fill the Wiki with , and then maybe I can see if I can convert it to a replay.

[Totbuae]

Well, 1v0ry_k1ng, what is fun? It completely depends on who you ask. I can think of nothing more fun than blowing up someone's stuff from stand off range giving them no chance to inflict any damage in return. On the other hand, if it were my stuff that got blown up I wouldn't get angry and say "arty is OP, this is no fun". I would just think "I really have to scout better next time".

The way I see it, arty in most RTS games is severely UP. What happens is that tradition has made people expect arty to be a novelty unit which they can safely ignore/not use. I'm not saying NOTA should have uber artillery, though.

This is, of course, just my humble opinion.

[Zpock]

Isn't there alredy tons of powerful artillery units in NOTA? Like the galacticus, and missile launchers. How powerful do you want? Artillery that always blows away equal cost units before they can even get into range?

[Rubenes]

Isn't there alredy tons of powerful artillery units in NOTA? Like the galacticus, and missile launchers. How powerful do you want? Artillery that always blows away equal cost units before they can even get into range?

There is powerful artillery in NOTA. We are talking about most other RTS games.

[Totbuae]

Artillery is never powerful enough.

No, seriously, NOTA does have some really nasty units in the arty drawer. It's one of the main reasons NOTA is one of the only few mods I play.

By the way, the 1.44 beta is around, any way I can look at a change list?

[Thor]

sure. Here it is.

v 1.44

-Added "Tracker" Infiltrator Kbot for CORE
-Added Spy kbot for ARM
-Added Floating Metal Extractors, built by bases and hovercraft
-Added Deployment and Commander Start mod options
-Commanders are now built at a warp gate
-Units with radar can now detect cloaked units at medium-to-close range
-Pelicans much faster in water; AA improved; laser damage/sec reduced; hp slightly reduced
-Gimps can climb slopes; damage/sec significantly increased; hp slightly reduced; now medium armor
-Nuclear Missile Silo metal cost and buildtime reduced 50%
-Cruiser, Battlecruiser, and Battleship overall firepower decreased 5%
-Missile Ship range decreased from 2600 to 2400; minimum range slightly decreased
-Bulldog firepower significantly increased
-Sniper damage, reload time decreased; not stealth when moving; decloak radius decreased
-Morty reload time increased 10%; death explosion size reduced
-Core mobile artillery damage increased 10%
-Rocket Box damage to heavy armor decreased 50%
-Arm Drone firepower decreased
-Arm Spider range, speed increased
-Moho Engineers are now all terrain
-Moho Mine metal cost decreased 30%
-Tidal Generator metal cost increased 15%
-Radar Tower cost increased 20%
-LLT laser velocity increased ~100%
-Machine Gun velocity increased 43%
-Vulcan and Buzzsaw cost decreased 30%
-Vulcan energy cost to fire decreased 50%
-Hellfish damage, area of effect lowered
-Black Lilly decloak radius decreased; does not decloak to fire; buildtime increased
-Stealth Fighter decloak radius decreased
-Toadfoot damage to ships lowered 25%
-Flying Wing hitpoints increased 5%; damage to buildings and ships increased ~7%
-Torpedo Bomber cost reduced 5%
-Commanders are now stealth while cloaked
-Heavy unit death explosion less deadly to other heavies.
-Crawling Bomb and landmine cost decreased
-Viper hitpoints slightly reduced
-Maverick autoheal improved
-Greyhound flank damage reduced
-Flea weapon changed back to regular laser
-Core Truck cheaper
-Flak slightly more accurate
-Fixed build menus loading slow
-Changed aircraft buildpictures to make numbers easier to see
-Fixed solar collectors showing up as idle builders

[Totbuae]

Thanks, Thor.

Not sure it's a bug but Core's infiltration kbot (Tracker) stays cloaked when it fires. Also, why is SPY in the description of Arm's spy kbot in all-caps? Is it an acronym?

Other than that, great work. I particularly like the new veh arty.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

Well, 1v0ry_k1ng, what is fun? It completely depends on who you ask. I can think of nothing more fun than blowing up someone's stuff from stand off range giving them no chance to inflict any damage in return. On the other hand, if it were my stuff that got blown up I wouldn't get angry and say "arty is OP, this is no fun". I would just think "I really have to scout better next time".

The way I see it, arty in most RTS games is severely UP. What happens is that tradition has made people expect arty to be a novelty unit which they can safely ignore/not use. I'm not saying NOTA should have uber artillery, though.

This is, of course, just my humble opinion.

how to explain this..

there is no skill in building a big arty tower at the front of your expansion and watching it kill shit. there is no need for tactical thinking and micromanagement when all your units can shoot a hell load of distance. you might notice how noobs love artillery. this is because artillery requires no imput and skill to use (besides that of intelligent placement) whilst microing mobile units and planning strikes requires alot.
Im not saying I like BA-style massed force spam to take down defence instead of artillery, but if artillery is effective enough to be a defence against mobile units then the balance will utterly fail, pretty much

[Rubenes]

how to explain this..

there is no skill in building a big arty tower at the front of your expansion and watching it kill shit. there is no need for tactical thinking and micromanagement when all your units can shoot a hell load of distance. you might notice how noobs love artillery. this is because artillery requires no imput and skill to use (besides that of intelligent placement) whilst microing mobile units and planning strikes requires alot.
Im not saying I like BA-style massed force spam to take down defence instead of artillery, but if artillery is effective enough to be a defence against mobile units then the balance will utterly fail, pretty much

Which is why mobiles always defeat artillery if used properly.Ideally, I think you should have some kind of rock-scissors-paper thing going on:
Artillery>Defences>Mobiles>Artillery etc. Of course, this is simplified, and if you start adding aircraft into the equation stuff becomes a hell lot more complex.