CA X BA discussion

[Saktoth]

This thread is a silly idea.

Krogoth, our changes follow a generally coherent pattern, though as with all game design they must be tested for feasibility and rely on other aspects of the game to be implemented first. Yes, there are some ideas that are 'Oh hey, how about we do this?' and some ideas are yet to even be formulated- but game design is an organic process, you wont have the whole thing mapped out down to the last variable before you even start. If we implement something that, through playtesting, just doesnt work, its not going to stay in the game.

We have a range of goals, including increased faction diversity and utilizing a larger range of the options available in the Spring engine. Thus, the removal of core jammers (except the t2 static) in favour of shields. This idea has been around since before CA even existed. A range of other changes come under these goals as well.

The branching of the factories into economic and military options is an idea thats also been around for ages, and is a part of the general flat balancing doctrine. It breaks the game down into several smaller options, making it grade more smoothly rather than jumping about in leaps and starts (that long pause in the game that comes while everyone techs followed by massive expansion of the economy due to mohos, etc).

I can tell you all the design decisions behind everything we did, why we feel they are a good idea and how they fit into the mod as a whole.

Just because you arent privy to our goals doesnt mean we dont have any. Yes, there is debate and discussion about what to implement and how, which is still ongoing, but that doesnt mean we are directionless. Perhaps they should be written down more comprehensively but i have gone on at length here and elsewhere regarding the design decisions behind what we are doing.

The unit responses are killing my ears though

The unit responses can be changed via the in-game menu. Personally i use the OTA sounds, cant sand the voices (a lot of people like em though).

[CarRepairer]

The unit responses are killing my ears though I do hope that's only temporary.

I use both voices and noises for a totally immersive experience. That way I can hear the angry windmill operator try to talk to me on his radio over the background noise of windmill turning. He hates his job, I can tell.

[[Krogoth86]]

@Saktoth:

Well my comment about CA being inconsistent just was my personal worst aspect I disliked on CA. I mean CA isn't THAT new and so it surprises me that after years in the meanwhile AFAIK there suddenly come in such very basic gameplay changes and I ask myself how can there be the vision of a mod if such important things (that just are a matter of resorting a text file) come in at this late point...

Imo that's kind of inconsistent as with such things being discussable at this late point the vision of the mod becomes more than vague imo. That's what I dislike the most about CA. Maybe once again to make it clear: It's "what I dislike the most" and not "what is the major thing that makes this mod shitty". It's my greatest critique but no rating of the mod's quality in general because in general the mod's great (although not my taste as I said and the "inconsistence" annoys me)...

[Evil4Zerggin]

that just are a matter of resorting a text file

Now that's not fair at all. In the end, there are only three things that one creates directly for a mod: text files, models, and pictures.

[[Krogoth86]]

Now that's not fair at all. In the end, there are only three things that one creates directly for a mod: text files, models, and pictures.

I said it this way to make clear that in this specific case the changes weren't something you need a lot of content / time intensive work for until it is finished. That way it worked to show my perception of the mod being kinda random / inconsistent (damn I seriously have to stop to use this word in every posting ) because of essential changes at a late point in development that "technically" are no difficulty and have no obvious reasons (like waiting for other content) for not having been applied already...

[Vadi]

Turning the sounds down for unit didn't work... but I let internet radio play while I was, so it was sorta drowning out / smoothing out the in-game sounds. Whew.

That said, CA is looking much nicer grapics-wise than BA. I'll be sticking to this :). Plus I heard it's replacing OTA models with their own - which is a really good thing for Spring.

[tombom]

well its obvious which mod im siding with here :p

@ krogoth

CA being inconsitent is a lie its always tried to deviate from its roots of just being another *A balance mod some of the new units feel out of place model wise so do alot of stuff compared to how OTA was.. Seeing as we dont have all the content to do everything in one go progression will be slow. So some stuff might seem out of place but is heading for a certain design goal (which does change a bit here or there in the proccess but is still pretty consitent) ofc this doesnt just apply to new models it applies to gameplay features alot of the stuff r new ideas or stuff thats been said that needs testing and might or might have not got fully implemented

any1 can argue pro's and con's likes and dislikes of CA and BA

its personal preferance at the end of the day

and i prefer CA to BA by a longshot (dusnt mean i still dont have my problems with CA but it is my faiv spring mod atm and has the greatest potential of any of the *A mods (which is being more than a *A mod))

the reasons u gave manored might be why u prefer CA over BA..

ill give my own reasons..

Dynamic , Fast Gameplay with alot of viable strategies whilst being fun and innovative, Faction Diversity

Please, if you think we need to read your long post, have the courtesy to use something resembling decent spelling and grammar.

[manored]

I had no problems reading that post. Crap grammar understands crap grammar? :)

I like morphing tech 1 builders instead of needing tech 2 to make tech 2 ones. Maybe we should have factories being able to build both of em instead tough. In that case tech 2 builder should probally be more expensive.

[Vadi]

I like it where you have to use strategy. Not just amass a certain amount of firepower via rapid economic expansion, but also be able to use tactics on the battlefield to win. Like, sending a sneaking emp bomb in, and then beating up on the paralyzed people.

What I really came to like though is that there are no huge guns as in BA. At first I missed them, but then realized it's actually a good thing - you can't kill off your enemy's troops from across half the base with a powerful cannon.

[tombom]

I like it where you have to use strategy. Not just amass a certain amount of firepower via rapid economic expansion, but also be able to use tactics on the battlefield to win. Like, sending a sneaking emp bomb in, and then beating up on the paralyzed people.

What I really came to like though is that there are no huge guns as in BA. At first I missed them, but then realized it's actually a good thing - you can't kill off your enemy's troops from across half the base with a powerful cannon.

Yes, BA has strategy and CA hasn't. Thanks for your well reasoned insight. If anything, CA actually has more tactical options. Also, as to your last sentence, have you even seen a Big Bertha?

[Argh]

after years in the meanwhile

Meh, it's only really been in active development for a little over a year now.

I think that, personally, you guys whining about CA are just whining because you can see how it changes as the game designers make up their minds about things, and experiment. Most game designers don't let you see things until they're reasonably sure that they're close to "done", short of minor balance tweaks. CA lets you see everything, even the disasters. Game designers are human, after all, and we make mistakes just like everybody else. And with a game that's trying to incorporate a huge amount of new code and upend an older game design in the process... disasters will happen. Just part of how things work.

[Vadi]

I like it where you have to use strategy. Not just amass a certain amount of firepower via rapid economic expansion, but also be able to use tactics on the battlefield to win. Like, sending a sneaking emp bomb in, and then beating up on the paralyzed people.

What I really came to like though is that there are no huge guns as in BA. At first I missed them, but then realized it's actually a good thing - you can't kill off your enemy's troops from across half the base with a powerful cannon.

Yes, BA has strategy and CA hasn't. Thanks for your well reasoned insight. If anything, CA actually has more tactical options. Also, as to your last sentence, have you even seen a Big Bertha?

I... didn't say CA doesn't have strategy. I said "I like it where you have to use strategy". As for the big guns - my mistake, you do get them later on in CA it seems.

Otherwise, chill. CA has much better graphics than BA, is on it's way replacing original TA models (very important, since TA content is hindering Spring), and that's a great reason to be playing it for me.

[manored]

Actual I would say CA has more strategic moments than BA, Because (assuming that you dont let the enemy take all the metal early on, what would have the same result in BA) CA has slow growing econ, while BA economy grows very fast. So like the economy diference between a player making econ and player not doing it is smaller in CA than in BA, what increases the effectivity of being a efficient combatent (low waste high damage).

[1v0ry_k1ng]

I would preffer CA as its reliance upon its quality and content to gain interest (where BA just relies on its own self sustaining popularity) means that balance issues, graphics and bugs are being continously dealt with. the sense of the mods "evolution" is what keeps it interesting, its a bit like the AA series- you were never sure what the next installment would bring, and that keeps the community interested.

[Saktoth]

CA does have a somewhat unique development model- its making a 'total conversion' of BA a bit at a time, and keeping it playable along the way.

There are people who say 'I want to wait until its finished' and thats a relatively valid complaint- CA is playable and fun, but not 'finished'.

But no mod is finished, just abandoned. People are still releasing new versions, and its not all just bug fixes, even BA.

Yes, its taken a long time to hammer out the application of a lot of the aspects of the mod- but that doesnt mean our decisions are arbitrary. Making all facs buildable was a part of the flat-balancing- it has a sound motivation, but its application and whether or not its a good idea is still in question- perhaps it would just mean everyone rushes t2 like an idiot and bloat the buildmenu for no good reason. But its turning out rather good, though we still have menu bloat issues (we need some lua to handle the buildlist better, really).

T1 is actually in a very solid state and has only very, very minor balance tweaks (talking less than 10% to a unit here or there) and hasnt changed significantly in months. We've got it mostly how we want it and we're quite happy with it- it probably wont change barring a global regularization and standardization of all costs/bt/m/e ratios (which would probably try to stick to the current logic as much as possible).

T2 is, frankly and admittedly, a mess. But so is BA's. And if you're playing either CA or BA with t2 as your major focus, you're missing the best part of the mod, and missing the point.

Anyway, we are working on t2 now to try and un-mess it and make it a better part of the game, so expect stuff like changes in lab costs, spitting of tech trees (econ centre) and lots and lots of balance changes. Will these be random and driven by whim? No. Are all the details figured out yet? No.

In the end though, if something isnt fun or doesnt work, we'll remove it or revise it. No point making a mod then realising all your carefully thought out designs are not actually any fun. Which is why we adopt this development model as play-while-you-go (also, cuz we'd get bored before we were finished if we did it any other way).

[Licho]

The unit responses are killing my ears though I do hope that's only temporary.

Set unit reply volume to low value..
Its in spring settings.

[Licho]

I prefer CA for several main reasons:

- there are "stronger" counters. For example warrior beats flashes, but rocko beats warrior and flashes easilly trash rockos.
This is achieved not by using some hidden "special damages" but simply using the way unit moves and shoots. This means micro and tactics is very important.
Even inferior (in cost) force can beat expensive army when used properly.
This allows interesting come-backs and puts emphasis on tactics.

- less porcing. Raiders are powerfull in CA and you have all incentives to fight over porcing. Running metal maker economy is not viable. Its much better to try to kill something and reclaim metal from dead enemies.

- interesting unit abilities. From crabe with mobile deflector, through egg which spit fire and closes to "hide" to blastwings. Units in CA are interesting, varied and fun to use.

- its faster (unit movement is much faster), and you get more interaction through the game.

- its better looking (nicer models and effects) and has more advanced GUI features.

- its actively developed by sizeable group of people and in open-source transparent way (all talk, design documents and changes visible on http://www.caspring.org). Game is being improved on daily basis and CA developers are very skilled.

[Vadi]

I already did, I set it to "2" (via SpringSettings) but it's taking no effect

[manored]

T2 is, frankly and admittedly, a mess.

Think you are exagerating a bit :) Tech 2 seens to be working fine for me, and properly balanced. Not sure how things are on stats tough, maybe I dont notice the unbalancements because each unit has a diferent role... :)

[SwiftSpear]

CA does many many things better than BA. That doesn't mean, in my opinion, that the sum of the things that CA does better makes it a better game. The consensus of spring play in numbers seems to say that most players have more fun playing BA than CA, and for all the things CA does better, if it's not addressing the player's reasons for choosing one over another, it really has no advantage.

I personally prefer CA both for playing and watching. The only thing I really don't like about it right now is the fact that it's often hard to find a game.