getdeb - a good place to put spring

[clericvash]

That page is VERY stupid idea.

GNU/Linux is *NOT* Windows. You dont install applications from WEBPAGE!
You install them trought package manager what use repositories and you send your maded packages to unofficial repositorys what you can find via debian/ubuntu pages. You only need to make account and you can then upload them there.

DO NOT MAKE GNU/LINUX AS WINDOWS!

I repeat, that page is VERY STUPID IDEA!

That page brakes almost EVERYTHING what is good in *nix systems and reason for it is that STUPID people want "help" new users and same time they just do BAD THINGS to WHOLE COMMUNITY.

Please, dont support that kind sites what tries to do windows world. If you like so much windows, STAY ON WINDOWS BUT DONT BRING THAT !%#(# TO *NIX SIDE!

I find your attitude horrible, go take you zealoty ways out of here, i use windows and linux, and like them both, and i like that website and will support it.

I would gladly go there, download and install rather than have to add repositories, search etc etc.

And it is a good way to spring more exposure!

[Fri13]

That page is VERY stupid idea.

I find your attitude horrible, go take you zealoty ways out of here, i use windows and linux, and like them both, and i like that website and will support it.

I would gladly go there, download and install rather than have to add repositories, search etc etc.

So you would like to download many deb files from HTML page and install them by hand to get one game? You would do it every time again and again when game is updated?

Sorry, but it IS stupid way to install applications on GNU/Linux.

GNU/Linux's mayby most powerfull feature is package management.
It is a) secure b) easy to learn b) simple to use

One important thing is that one application is using shared packages and is not build as one file like on windows side. On windows side user need to download so much stuff what is already installed on that system and that why there is dll hells etc, even on vista. Microsoft learned this and toke package thing from GNU/Linux and invented .MSI package what is similar to .deb and .rpm format. MSI keeps track what files is installed on system and keeps track dublicats and can remove them or not allowing installing duplicats, if application is using .msi format and it is build right, it is working system.

Now it looks like windows users (sorry, i use windows too and i see how bad it can be) want to do same "easy" favor to linux too, make application installers what have everything in one package. This just leads to problems that system has depencies hell in hands because all applications are starting to have same libraries and stuff twice or even more.

To get spring installed by smart way, is it gets installed trought package manager what a) installs it b) updates it c) removes it and all without no problem.

To have user to install it from webpage, it's last resolt for promoting spring. Users will have problems to update the game, they dont get updates trought update manager when game is updates but they need to start browser, surf to site and download packages (yes, it is needed to keep in many packages so if one is updates, not everything is need to download again) and install them one by one by clickin them in right order or from command line. And this is even only for deb files, where you are going to add RPM files and versions for gentoo, slackware, different distro's versions etc?

Very smart people has build GNU/Linux and very wise mans has got idea to have shared libraries and packages so user only need to install those new packages/files if others are already installed to system, everything by "magically" with internet connection.
And they made system what install, updates and removes everything without a hitch and now one application users want to break this wise system by bringing back windows way to do it what even Microsoft is going to abandon.

I like GNU/Linux and i like windows, but i dont like that someone is suggesting stupid idea what just brings more problems than good for everyone.

You can make what ever you want with TA Spring, even make one big deb package what size is 2Gb because it is having all maps and mods in it and it is needed to download from webpage, or have it sliced to 5 different files what are needed update by hand, what ever you like.

If i just would be ta spring developer, i would make nice infos what librarys and things is needed (universal, not just some ubuntu packages). Offer easy SVN (already). And then promote it to different distribution repository mainainers who starts taking care that game is always updated and available from distros own package manager where _all other_ applications are avaible. Then just build very nice site to promote game and then when new user sees it and wants to try it, she/he clicks that familiar add/remove software manager open, types there "spring" and install's it and is happy.

No need to go other HTML site than TA Spring, download many (or one) packages to somewhere on she/he's computer, install them via CLI or click them to get installed by right order and when game is updated, go again to that site, download packages, install them etc etc.


I have used GNU/Linux since 90's middle and learned a lot from what is smart way to do things. And it really ain't smart way what this original idea is.

Only good thing what that site's gives, is promo for those apps, but i wouldn't ever install those from that site because they might be a) unsafe packages b) outdated c) more dificult to install.

I could install all those applications from that site just via uprmi. I have yakuake open so i just type:

su
urpmi <name>

and i get ALL those installed, some fere even newer versions. And if you noticed, i didnt need to add any repository, no need to download packages to somewhere and at last, no need to install it by hand and update later by hand.

So until you start calling others as zealotry (you typed it "zealoty" :-D) and promoting own ideas what just breaks great and working system, i suggest you thing twice.

But hey! I can only say it is _stupid_ and that i have done! So do what ever you like, i cannot stop you doing very stupid thing if you really wanna do it.

[Boirunner]

I'm not necessarily saying spring shouldn't be on that website, but Fri13 does make a very good point.

[LordMatt]

Which was? (for the tl;dr crowd)

[Boirunner]

For Linux, repositories are a far superior way to distribute software than downloads off websites.

[clericvash]

My point still bloody stands, it gives spring a lot more exposure for linux users.

And i refuse to post here again with his attitude.

[theHive]

Look, repositories and debs aren't mutually exclusive!

Is there any reason we can't do both? As far as I can tell no, so where's the issue?

I was under the impression we were planning to do both anyway.

[LordMatt]

For Linux, repositories are a far superior way to distribute software than downloads off websites.

What does that have to do with not distributing both?

[clericvash]

Look, repositories and debs aren't mutually exclusive!

Is there any reason we can't do both? As far as I can tell no, so where's the issue?

I was under the impression we were planning to do both anyway.

Exactly, christ just because it's Linux doesn't mean we can't put it on a website and give it some more exposure and another place available to download.

And sure the package manager with repositories are a great idea, but giving spring more exposure in another way is also a great idea not a stupid one. People can feel free to see it there, and install via package manager, but a lot of people may never see it unless they search for it, at least on that website they get more of a chance to know about spring.

There is no viable reason not to get it up there.

[Boirunner]

What does that have to do with not distributing both?

He's not thinking of the good of Spring specifically, but of the Linux community as a whole. He finds (and I tend to agree) that offering programs as downloads from websites is a bad habit, and should be discouraged. As a content provider, you should use the distribution method that was intended for Linux.

I personally think that this is a good principle, but getting a few more players is worth breaking it. I understand that people who are more active in the Linux community than me would disagree with that, though.

[Stealth870]

Geez Fri13, you seem to be seriously misinformed to the site's purpose and usage.

So you would like to download many deb files from HTML page and install them by hand to get one game? You would do it every time again and again when game is updated?

No, most programs on the site only have ONE deb, though some bigger ones like GIMP or Freeciv will include some of their must-have dependencies (not anything messing with your system, I'm talking about regular stuff like the *-data or something) as well. Spring? As far as I know would only need to, spring and spring-data, just like in the repos.

Would you do upgrade from there again and again?? WOW what a task, a new version of spring comes out...every few months? Personally though, Spring wouldn't need to use the site as I'm sure that the Ubuntu repos available will be updated fairly quickly. This site is mainly for those apps in the main ubuntu repos that don't get updates till the next Ubuntu release (for instance, Pidgin. Stuck at 2.2.1 in Gutsy. I use this site to get the latest version, which comes out monthly. 3 debs to download, to get the newest version is NO hassle for me, and causes no problems to my system. Though, if I were to find a repo I'd obviously use that instead)

GNU/Linux's mayby most powerfull feature is package management.
It is a) secure b) easy to learn b) simple to use

a. This site is widely known among the Ubuntu users. If there ever WERE a "bad package" uploaded, or security was compromised, we'd be notified immediately. Security is not an issue.

b. Easy to learn? If you wanna talk about Windows users, they've been downloading installers all their life, they aren't learning anything, they already KNOW.

b2. Which I assume you mean "c", is accomplished thanks to Ubuntu's deb installer, which allows you to double click any deb and have the apt-get/dpkg stuff work its magic.

One important thing is that one application is using shared packages and is not build as one file like on windows side. On windows side user need to download so much stuff what is already installed on that system and that why there is dll hells etc, even on vista.
... make application installers what have everything in one package. This just leads to problems that system has depencies hell in hands because all applications are starting to have same libraries and stuff twice or even more.

Do you even understand how debs work?? When you compile them, they have the dependency LISTED INSIDE. If I download Pidgin from the site, it doesn't mean that the deb is including EVERY dependency needed inside? What would be the use of that? It uses all of the dependencies STRAIGHT FROM THE REPOS. i.e. that libssl to login MSN, or the libgtk to use the window manager isn't recompiled and added again to your system, the deb LOOKS for the dependencies you already have installed! Since Pidgin is installed by default on Ubuntu, you will never have issues! And if a package needs to download a dependency, it uses apt-get anyway, so it'd be just like installing it through Synaptic, except you get the pleasure of using the latest version. Which is the point.

To get spring installed by smart way, is it gets installed trought package manager what a) installs it b) updates it c) removes it and all without no problem.

Which can be done through this site or repos.
a. apt-get install spring spring-data OR dpkg -i spring*.deb spring-data*.deb
b. apt-get dist-upgrade
c. apt-get remove spring*

If the packages come from the same place, apt-get can take over an independently installed deb without problems!

Only good thing what that site's gives, is promo for those apps, but i wouldn't ever install those from that site because they might be a) unsafe packages b) outdated c) more dificult to install.

a. Read my point about security way above
b. LOL, the point of the site is to get the LATEST version of that software! Go look at your Ubuntu repos if you want to see outdated.
c. Wrong again, double click a deb is actually easier than opening up Synaptic, searching for the package, checking and THEN installing.


Again, I don't think Spring even NEEDS the site as the point of getdeb is mainly to have updated versions of programs that are in the Ubuntu main repos, since they are only updated for security fixes. Spring has a repo, just like WINE, which I never have to download a deb from because the repo is updated a day or few after a new release! For exposure we should aim more for sites like The Linux Game Tome, LinuxGames, Freshmeat, and Icewalkers so more people know that this game exists. But I'm trying to correct any bad misunderstandings with how the getdeb.net site works as I am very grateful for it, and don't like to see it bashed by someone who is simply misinformed.

[clericvash]

Thanks for the post, pretty much everything i wanted to say but couldn't be bothered to, nice and informative :).

Ps http://www.editingarchive.com/archivegames/

They just released a linux version of the game downloader, may be nice for Linux and Windows to get spring on it maybe?

[Fri13]

Do you even understand how debs work??

I have build many debs in my life and maintained few applications even too, best way to do it is to work together with community, with a distro repository maintainers and so on _everything_ is much easier than update packages byself and send them to some page to have users to install them by hand

Which can be done through this site or repos.
a. apt-get install spring spring-data OR dpkg -i spring*.deb spring-data*.deb
b. apt-get dist-upgrade
c. apt-get remove spring*

You cant update TA Spring with "apt-get dist-upgrade" command if you install it by hand by downloading packages example to desktop and then clickin them from there. Everytime you want update game, you need to surf to that webpage, find game, download packages, install them in right order (mayby even first remove already installed).
You need repository to get added to have package manager to do it automatically, if not having repository, you need to do it manually.

a. Read my point about security way above
b. LOL, the point of the site is to get the LATEST version of that software! Go look at your Ubuntu repos if you want to see outdated.
c. Wrong again, double click a deb is actually easier than opening up Synaptic, searching for the package, checking and THEN installing.

Security status indicator isn't that if big amount of Ubuntu users use repository and no one really test software or check it! Security needs source files too and there is much bigger change to get unsafe package from thirdparty site than carefully maintained repository server from debian or ubuntu official.
But you are right that in other point of view.

And there might be a reason why ubuntu official repository has outdated, a) they dont get easily new packages b) dont know TA spring c) no one from spring community is informing ubuntu maintainers when game is updated.

And you are mistaken on c), double clickin deb isn't easier than opening synaptic. Why?
1) open browser
2) surf to site
3) find game
4) download (many) packages
5) find saved packages
6) click packages in right order to get installed.
7) to update game, do 1-6 again

By using package manager:
1) open package manager
2) type "spring" to search
3) mark spring to be installed
4) install
5) to update game, click "OK" when update information comes

And why synaptic is much easier?
a) _all_ software is being installed from there
b) _all_ software is being updated from there
c) _all_ software is being removed from there.

So, you are referring that TWO different ways, is better than ONE and even the preferred and most used way would be bad one.
User who use synaptic in first time, is already learned that and is familiar because everything happends from there and whole system is updated automatically when user press "update". Everything else than those what arent installed by package manager and have repositories.

Yes, it might sound very "little effort" to do in again after few months but _why_ to "forget" great system and force user to do it other way and not using possibilities what package manager offers for basic task? Why do it a lá Windows?

Why not that person who sends those deb files to that site, send them to ubuntu/suse/fedora/mandriva etc, repository maintainers and work with them so user gets that game via package manager and it would be always updated when game is updated?

But I'm trying to correct any bad misunderstandings with how the getdeb.net site works as I am very grateful for it, and don't like to see it bashed by someone who is simply misinformed.

Then it seems that there is two of us. I have seen so much bad ideas from new GNU/Linux users who just want "make things easier" as they are learned on windows, not knowing that idea just makes everything worse in

There is so big and great community offering help to distribute software by using already builded systems, and getdeb kind sites just throws that help away and try to do things by "MS" way what just brings broblem to all that site using users.

Yes, you can send those deb files to getdeb site, but i just dont see _any_ good reason for making end users live harder what it could be by working together with community.

If i would again start software developing, i would again ask community to help me. I would offer CVS/SVN account for big distro's maintainers and they would help me alot by packaging it for me on those distributions and then i just need to build nice site, mayby even wiki and TIP there for users to install that application trought apt/urpmi/yast/yum etc and open new sites to popular sites like kde-apps.org, madpenguin.org, sourceforge.net etc. And everyones is winning.

So, all what i suggest is that spring developers takes contact to mandriva developers, suse developers (might even be good idea to ask from packman) ubuntu's developers (dont know much anymore about ubuntu way), debian, gentoo and so on.. ask little help, tell them what game is about and if there would be someone who would like to take care to maintain that or for who to send packages. There is always someone who is willing to help.

Then for promoting game itself, i would do nice youtube videos, screenshots, helps etc etc. Make better looking site for game (sorry but ta spring main page is not so good looking and this forum isn't so easy to follow ) and put those on it and so on.

[Stealth870]

...best way to do it is to work together with community, with a distro repository maintainers and so on _everything_ is much easier than update packages byself and send them to some page to have users to install them by hand

Agreed. And as I stated, I don't think Spring needs this site as its meant for the latest version of software that is not updated fast enough in Ubuntu's official repos.

You cant update TA Spring with "apt-get dist-upgrade" command if you install it by hand by downloading packages example to desktop and then clickin them from there.

I am 99% sure, that you can download a deb, install it, and then if a new version comes out in one of your repos, apt-get WILL upgrade the program, even if installed with a deb file. For instance, since I've been using getdeb for Pidgin mainly, I was able to get it in 7.04 Feisty. Then in my Gutsy upgrade (repo), it updated my Pidgin installed, which later, I updated again using getdeb. Debs, dpkg, apt-get should all work together.

Ok, if you want to go into specifics for the updates, I guess it would take longer. However, bookmarks would cut many steps out of the process.

So, you are referring that TWO different ways, is better than ONE and even the preferred and most used way would be bad one.

Uhm, I think repos are better than hand-installing a *.deb. I don't believe I've tried to say otherwise.

Why not that person who sends those deb files to that site, send them to ubuntu/suse/fedora/mandriva etc, repository maintainers and work with them so user gets that game via package manager and it would be always updated when game is updated?

I don't know about the others, but Ubuntu has strict repo policies (only updates for major security/bug fixes or something), which is why programs (like WINE) usually have their own repos since they can't get updates into the official ones as quick. Now, we already have someone here maintaining a Spring repo for Ubuntu, so I never plan on installing any debs, unless the maintainer is super lazy and doesn't update promptly ;P

[shanepardue]

I sure hope they do update promptly because as it stands right now, I can't play Spring anymore. The new version is out, but not for us Ubuntuers.

[Sim9]

Ps http://www.editingarchive.com/archivegames/

They just released a linux version of the game downloader, may be nice for Linux and Windows to get spring on it maybe?

Wow, thanks Clericvash! I don't want to make this thread off-topic, but I did want to briefly interject that if you guys are interested in getting on Archive Games, please feel free to contact us! We're actively looking for new developers, and as you mention, our distribution platform is compatible with both Windows and Linux.

For more information targetted towards developers, check out our Developer Info Page. We have a private wiki and a private forum set up to help developers learn how to use our delivery platform so they have total control over their own games. Alternatively, we can set everything up for you.

Just have your project lead contact us with permission to distribute Spring and the team member contact information for who it will be best for us to interface with.

Thanks again, and sorry for eavesdropping :)

-- Sim9, Archive Entertainment Owner

[Stealth870]

I sure hope they do update promptly because as it stands right now, I can't play Spring anymore. The new version is out, but not for us Ubuntuers.

shanepardue, don't fret, just check out the development forum. Yokozar (maintainer of the repo) says to give him 12 hours.

[shanepardue]

I sure hope they do update promptly because as it stands right now, I can't play Spring anymore. The new version is out, but not for us Ubuntuers.

shanepardue, don't fret, just check out the development forum. Yokozar (maintainer of the repo) says to give him 12 hours.

Hehe awesome! Thanks for calming me Stealth870!

[clericvash]

Ps http://www.editingarchive.com/archivegames/

They just released a linux version of the game downloader, may be nice for Linux and Windows to get spring on it maybe?

Wow, thanks Clericvash! I don't want to make this thread off-topic, but I did want to briefly interject that if you guys are interested in getting on Archive Games, please feel free to contact us! We're actively looking for new developers, and as you mention, our distribution platform is compatible with both Windows and Linux.

For more information targetted towards developers, check out our Developer Info Page. We have a private wiki and a private forum set up to help developers learn how to use our delivery platform so they have total control over their own games. Alternatively, we can set everything up for you.

Just have your project lead contact us with permission to distribute Spring and the team member contact information for who it will be best for us to interface with.

Thanks again, and sorry for eavesdropping :)

-- Sim9, Archive Entertainment Owner

I would suggest that you contact the developers regarding it, i am sure they will be interested.

And no problem, i saw a post for it on linuxgames.com hehe.