TA Derivative Balancing Theory Discussion

[Neddie]

I'm talking about gamers in general, not just in Spring. Also, I'm simply building upon Nemo's work with a personal twist.

[smoth]

because people are assholes.

That's right everyone who disagrees with smoth is an asshole and a troll.

That is a convenient attitude to have if you want to enjoy lulz at my expense.

[LordMatt]

because people are assholes.

That's right everyone who disagrees with smoth is an asshole and a troll.

That is a convenient attitude to have if you want to enjoy lulz at my expense.

I think most people enjoy lulz, without regard to who's expense they are at. People who get riled up by stupid stuff are easy targets. There are people here on this forum who would be impossible to troll (e.g. quantum, meltrax, tobi) and other people who seem to find their way into every disagreement (these I shall leave unnamed, but you know who you are ). No one knows who you guys are, or anything about you guys outside this forum, and yet somehow, the trolls manage to find you guys every time. Perhaps, just perhaps, it's something about how you guys come across BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE ANYTHING ELSE ON AN ONLINE FORUM. Thus, it's entirely up to you if you want to be trolled or not, just as some people on the forum refuse to get trolled (nor does anyone have any desire to troll them), you can choose not to be a troll catcher yourself.

[smoth]

so the answer is that the person getting trolled has done the wrong?

[Fanger]

God people are retarded...

The most skilled gamer at a game is NOT the most qualified to balance said game... if you cant see why that is.. then you need to re think yourself...

There are 2 elements here.. there is reality and Intent..

If I give a scissors to a bunch of kids.. most of them will use it to cut paper.. some will be unable to figure out how to do it.. and a few will attempt to stab the other kids.. Clearly in this group the ones who use it as a weapon will prove to be superior to the other kids, as they will gain control.. does this mean when I redesign a scissors I should make it better at stabbing.. NO.. it doesnt... because your forgetting a key element.. INTENT.. what was the intended purpose of this unit/item/object..

The best players are usually the most competitive.. and they usually also have extreme tunnel vision when it comes to a game.. they do not know best because they do not care.. they dont care what the intended purpose of a unit was, they only care about whether they can use it in some way to win. For example the Missile Tower forests.. gamers Laud over this brillant deduction as a paragon virtue amongst TA gaming gurus.. from a creative standpoint I look at this and go.. hrm.. what was the INTENT.. were missile towers supposed to be the most cost effective unit.. were they supposed to fire through eachother.. If this is the case then well there we go, if this isnt.. then pfah.. this is imbalanced.. but would a l33t TA gamer say so.. NO.. because they can win with these.. therefore its fine.. they also have strats to counter it.. again Fine...

The Game Designer needs to be Outside the equation when it comes to balance and design, because by neccessity he should be making the game to a design, anything that deviates from that.. is an imbalance.. baring minor greivences.. So yes you can watch good players to learn balance, but not so much for how to balance, but more to watch people using units when playing solely to win, and seeing if the units/methods they use are what you INTENDED.. if they are then so be it.. if they arent then they need to be fixed..

Again the other thing people need to realize.. Balance is an opinion, and is thus subjective.. it is not an absolute, nor objective.. It can be disagreed with.. argued, and have multiple variations..

So no smoth is not less qualified than anyone else to balance anything.. and NO the "best" TA player is not the most qualified to balance it..

[Felix the Cat]

I'm at school for game development right now - at Full Sail, which has one of the top game development programs in the country in terms of percentage of graduates in the industry and recognition by the industry.

One of the first things that we are taught is that game developers don't play games; game developers watch other people play games. Game developers think about games, game developers write about games, game developers put new twists on games, but game developers are NOT gamers.

I doubt that will add any to the discussion, but I thought I'd say it anyways. (I liek pie?)

[tombom]

nevermind i give up

[SwiftSpear]

I'm at school for game development right now - at Full Sail, which has one of the top game development programs in the country in terms of percentage of graduates in the industry and recognition by the industry.

One of the first things that we are taught is that game developers don't play games; game developers watch other people play games. Game developers think about games, game developers write about games, game developers put new twists on games, but game developers are NOT gamers.

I doubt that will add any to the discussion, but I thought I'd say it anyways. (I liek pie?)

Welcome to why the current game development industry sucks.

[KDR_11k]

Shigeru Miyamoto almost never plays videogames. Would you say that guy doesn't know what a good game is?

[KingRaptor]

I can't believe I have to explain this in simple terms to you chimps.

1) The best players are the ones who are best suited to giving feedback on balance because they understand what exactly the issues are, and often how to correct them. Note that this does not preclude the possibility of a top player having a dumbass opinion.

1a) In the event that players are using an item in a different way than the developer intended, it is the prerogative of the developer to leave the item as it is or change it. Whether or not he makes the right decision is not predefined.

2) A person's ability to balance one game has little to no bearing on any other game.

3) Whether or not someone is a good player has no bearing on whether the person can model/script/texture/etc. well, and no-one has claimed otherwise.

4) Design and balance are separate entities.

5) Whether or not the developer is qualified to balance the game is a completely moot point because in the end the developer is the only one capable of actually making any changes to the game.

6) Whether you play games for fun or to win, what genres you like, and so forth are as relevant to the factual accuracy of the above five points as the price of Peewees in CA.



Also, for those of you who think that the developers know best when it comes to balance, I have only one thing to say to you:

C&C Generals: Zero Hour.

[Sleksa]

This is only going to go around and around tombom. I really have lost all joy in gaming because of the "best" players. There come a point where you just have to play religiously and basically use the 3-4 good builds.

Sensors indicate noob?


There are always the "basic" builds for any game, because the players are striving to the most efficient build, discarding the non-efficient ones. you cant change it unless you create a game where ingame statistics are thrown by dice.

Fact of the matter is that I do not ever want to become good and even if I wanted to there are times where I can do next to nothing because of my fucking hands and whatever is wrong with them but I digress. My point stands, if only the best players can be qualified to balance something then you must consider that there is no point in my continued existence or work here as I obviously am both redundant and without use.

You know who'se help they are using to balance starcraft2?

Korean Progamers

now why would blizzard use the skills and senses of those guys unless they were like, thinking of how to exploit units to the fullest and not giving shit about what the developer thinks the unit is supposed to do and what it isnt?

[KDR_11k]

Bugfixing. See how far they can deviate from the intended gameplay and find ways to prevent them from doing it.

[smoth]

korean players play a metric fuckton more starcraft then the "elites" of this shithole. As a minor FYI I used to keke with the best of them as zerg but I was always prohibited because I didn't speak korean. BTW, it was ALL memorization and training. Again, past number crunching, when you are looking to get good you have only to memorize the actions and practice them. Of course when my hands would act up I would lose but meh that is my point that skill is often just a matter of practicing a standard tactic or strat and when you have practiced one skillset you get pissed when someone changes is because you are now going to have relearn things. Happened to me with broodwars. Happened to the hardcore CS community.

you guys are fighting it here.


Sleksa, I don't really know why you have a morning star in your anus but this isn't the BA thread, I left it so you could piss and moan all you want in there. Don't think outside of that thread that I will consider your opinion valid, you have lost all respect from me all ready.

[LordMatt]

so the answer is that the person getting trolled has done the wrong?

Not really, the answer is that the only thing you can control is how you come across. You can be troll bait or not, that's up to you. It has less to do with what your opinions are, than how you express them, e.g.:

Sleksa, I don't really know why you have a morning star in your anus but this isn't the BA thread, I left it so you could piss and moan all you want in there. Don't think outside of that thread that I will consider your opinion valid, you have lost all respect from me all ready.

and similar statements from others in the thread.

The best players are usually the most competitive.. and they usually also have extreme tunnel vision when it comes to a game.. they do not know best because they do not care.. they dont care what the intended purpose of a unit was, they only care about whether they can use it in some way to win. For example the Missile Tower forests.. gamers Laud over this brillant deduction as a paragon virtue amongst TA gaming gurus.. from a creative standpoint I look at this and go.. hrm.. what was the INTENT.. were missile towers supposed to be the most cost effective unit.. were they supposed to fire through eachother.. If this is the case then well there we go, if this isnt.. then pfah.. this is imbalanced.. but would a l33t TA gamer say so.. NO.. because they can win with these.. therefore its fine.. they also have strats to counter it.. again Fine...

The Game Designer needs to be Outside the equation when it comes to balance and design, because by neccessity he should be making the game to a design, anything that deviates from that.. is an imbalance.. baring minor greivences.. So yes you can watch good players to learn balance, but not so much for how to balance, but more to watch people using units when playing solely to win, and seeing if the units/methods they use are what you INTENDED.. if they are then so be it.. if they arent then they need to be fixed..

Some good players are like that, others are not, however (and no good BA player that I know of thinks MT forests were a good thing). Regardless, TA does not have a developer any more, so the good players must do their best to make the mod as fun as possible (making more units useful, giving them more specific roles, etc.) Not all good players are equipped to do this sort of thing, but the ones who are involved in BA actively are. Until good players actually play other mods (i,e, there is a core of competitive 1v1 players playing the mod, and innovating new strategies to win) there would be no point in bringing non-TA mods into the discussion.

[Fanger]

So KingRaptor would you agree with the following..

-ProGamers are not automatically by their "Pro" status the best suited to balance a game.. but again can provide input on how to do so..

-Developers are not automatically by their "Dev" status the best suited to balance a game.. but because they are the one making it usually are likely to be the one doing so..

Essentially summing it up that you dont need to be a "Pro" gamer to either balance a game well, or to give back balance input that can be useful.. and anyone who says otherwise is a delusional elitest douche..

Glad we solved that.. btw Sleksa.. die in a fire my friend.. your orgasming over leet micro is getting very tiresome..

LordMatt.. shut up.. 1v1 is not some be all end all setup.. good grief.. get your head out of your anus for half a second and realize that everything does not come down to 1v1 and l33t micro.. god im so tired of that being somehow a standard...

[tombom]

Glad we solved that.. btw Sleksa.. die in a fire my friend.. your orgasming over leet micro is getting very tiresome..

Sleksa, I don't really know why you have a morning star in your anus but this isn't the BA thread, I left it so you could piss and moan all you want in there. Don't think outside of that thread that I will consider your opinion valid, you have lost all respect from me all ready.

You guys ignoring what he says purely because you don't like him when he's being perfectly polite is utterly ridiculous. If you're seriously going to act like this, please never moan about trolls again.

[LordMatt]

and anyone who says otherwise is a delusional elitest douche..

Glad we solved that.. btw Sleksa.. die in a fire my friend.. your orgasming over leet micro is getting very tiresome..

LordMatt.. shut up.. 1v1 is not some be all end all setup.. good grief.. get your head out of your anus for half a second and realize that everything does not come down to 1v1 and l33t micro.. god im so tired of that being somehow a standard...

MOAR TROLL BAIT MOAR MOAR

It's like a puppet show, pull the strings and they will say stupid stuff.

[Sleksa]

As a minor FYI I used to keke with the best of them as zerg but I was always prohibited because I didn't speak korean.

oh can i see some links where smoth is kekeing with the best of koreans :D

Sleksa, I don't really know why you have a morning star in your anus but this isn't the BA thread, I left it so you could piss and moan all you want in there. Don't think outside of that thread that I will consider your opinion valid, you have lost all respect from me all ready.

References to BA and wc3 are there just as examples.

they are as easily applied to your gundam as to ca or starcraft or wc2.

BTW, it was ALL memorization and training. Again, past number crunching, when you are looking to get good you have only to memorize the actions and practice them. Of course when my hands would act up I would lose but meh that is my point that skill is often just a matter of practicing a standard tactic or strat

you get pissed when someone changes is because you are now going to have relearn things. Happened to me with broodwars. Happened to the hardcore CS community.

you guys are fighting it here.

When randy started to play spring pretty much everyone had to relearn to cope with his playstyle.(well atleast i did)

i dont mind relearning things, and this has nothing to do with the topic.

The thing is that players will always have superior knowledge on how the game works, and how to use it to their advantage.

Game devs can only create a set of bounds in which the player plays, and once the players breach a wall you have set you have 2 options to do.

In the end its a question of balancing the actions you take,

if you fight hard to force others to play as you want them to, they will go away.

if you let the players find gamebreaking exploits and not fixing them, they will go away.

you have to find a good balance with that, and you will need skilled players to show you the exploits no matter how hard you cry its not true.

in the end, a dev with gosugaming experience is the best dev you can possibly have. and NOiZE and day make a excellent pair in that case

Sleksa, I don't really know why you have a morning star in your anus

i have three of them up my ass to keep myself angry

[smoth]

Lordmatt, you are a moderator here, you have a position of authority. Antagonizing us is not really fair as we cannot really strike back at you for fear of repercussions. If our actions were out of line you would discipline us not join the lynch mob. It is a bit unfair and has been aggravating me. Rather then asking for people to troll us consider instead what that statement says about you as a moderator.

Sleksa, I don't have any replays of me playing 8/9ish years ago in SC. Either way all of my ability to play well in starcraft would have to be relearned and at this point I don't think I want to. What I had done was spent all my time in the zerg rush maps and was able to then take the fast micro I learned there in and use it to massively landgrab and expand faster then the flood in halo. Mostly my key strategy was to expand faster then the other players. Past that it was understanding the combinations of counters in starcraft. Something I felt was broken heavily by DT in broodwars. My favorite map was sherwood.

Anyway 2 very important posts were man namely fang's first post and felix's post. I think those two post clearly express what I was trying to say. YES, the good players can exploit the game. In TA it seems you guys embrace that playstyle and make it part of the game. For example conassist was not part of the design, the ai would use it if it was.

That is one thing I keep saying, players break what you are trying to do. Not just good players, bad players can also find exploits. I have seen the pro players say nothing in the past and just use the exploit rather then report it. That is part of the reason for my believe in pro players and their inability to balance. They have the microsoft "feature" perspective. Unintended mechanics are added because of a slip up that the designer makes.

Designers are not perfect and mostly we can be a bit idealistic but we have playtesting and playtesters to try and catch these exploits. Pro players do not catch bugs or exploits because they are good. They catch them because they play more then anyone else. It is only a matter of time, that time the devs are most of the time using to work on stuff or perhaps have a life. one thing about the "pro" players is that they have spent more time in game then most. That isn't skill to me, that is just experience and it doesn't give them a higher understanding past finding their key strats. Again, they have a tendency to find exploits faster by sheer force of numbers. Am I still unclear? I am trying to explain it a bit better.

[Forboding Angel]

It should be noted that those who look down on TA based mods here are quite horrid at playing them, and that the alternative works suggested lack elements of depth and strategy found in such basic RTSes as Starcraft and Command & Conquer, so their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt. ~~

As for worries about copyrights, TA with both expansions was selling for $5 retail in 2007 - no one's going to care about your use of its content one way or another unless you start a company and try to use unmodified content and sell it, which you won't, as the original content's lost all commercial value. If you're having twinges of conscience, then - "Give all that you have to the poor, and follow [Christ]." - have them about something worth having them about. There are free, mostly uncopyrighted mods for Spring, but without TA content, Spring simply wouldn't be worth playing, and that's that.

This is crap. I look down on TA based mods (evne though I made one, but that was to learn with) and I am quite good, this includes BA, even though I hate playing BA.


BTW atm spring is not worth playing BECAUSE of all the TA bullshit. Get rid of that, and we're getting somewhere.