EE version 0.173 Final (no more stuffs)

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 06 Mar 2007, 19:16

interceptors own all air units just fine, they are not OP in the bigger picture

j5mello · Post by **j5mello** » 06 Mar 2007, 21:42

Indeed there was a sever lack of anti air in that game on the part of the other team. The assault helis have low health and a few lvl 2 anti air will kill em quick.
That said they are going to be nerfed damage wise a bit since they seem a bit strong.

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 06 Mar 2007, 21:43

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:interceptors own all air units just fine, they are not OP in the bigger picture

I worry about this attitude - for a while it was pervasive in Abs.Annihilation, and it made air combat dreadfully dull (and bad). Obviously aircraft is critical in your anti-air strategy, since air can attack you anywhere, thus you need to be able to defend anywhere... but the problem is that anti-air planes tend to die fast to ground AA (since, logically, you don't want to have too many, so ground AA can pick them off easily) - this is even worse in early Absolute Annihilation, here the L1 AA planes were far more effectivethan their hard-to-get L2 counterparts, and were horribly fragile. That produced a problem where it was really, really hard to defend a forward attack team from defensive gunships, since there was only really _one_ mobile ground-based anti-air unit, stuck in an (at the time) unpopular tech tree (L2 V).

In short - yes, aircraft AA needs to be good, but if it becomes the primary anti-air strategy then it hurts the gameplay.

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 06 Mar 2007, 21:47

Why not just make interceptors able to withstand some fire from ground AA? They aren't going to kill an army or base either way, why not let them operate in hostile territory longer?

j5mello · Post by **j5mello** » 06 Mar 2007, 21:50

Interceptors aren't the only viable AA they are just the easiest to use since they can respond quickly and stop bombers before they hit their targets...

Ground based AA is just as effective but since it can't be Ahead of the targets it protects, chances are bombers will still get a shot off (like they do in BA).

Summary:
-Interceptors allow you to prevent bombers from firing by taking them out before they reach their targets
-Ground based AA is good for killing off air units but won't necessarily keep the bombers from getting a shot off...

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 06 Mar 2007, 23:34

trust me pxtl this is not my attitude..

the Ground Assault helis somewhat OP.. they need a damage/range nerf and a slight health nerf as well

even with heavy AA I suspect they could get a salvo off and kill something important like a com..

I also did not like the whole rushing to those..

j5mello · Post by **j5mello** » 07 Mar 2007, 02:12

as much as it saved our teams ass

OOmiz · Post by **OOmiz** » 07 Mar 2007, 14:47

Fanger wrote:trust me pxtl this is not my attitude..

the Ground Assault helis somewhat OP.. they need a damage/range nerf and a slight health nerf as well

even with heavy AA I suspect they could get a salvo off and kill something important like a com..

I also did not like the whole rushing to those..

I'm glad to see that you are aware of the problem.

chlue · Post by **chlue** » 07 Mar 2007, 15:10

In my opinion the ground assault helis should use more fuel to fire their rockets.

A "Medium Cluster Bomber Helicopter" drops 10 * 200 dmg in a burst and then has to refuel. The missles from the assault helis do 455 dmg and burn only 10 of the 240 fuel. So if i assume 40 fuel for flying, they still can fire 20 rockets, with results in over 9000 potential dmg.

Additionall they are usefull against buildings and units, while you have to choose the right type, if you want to use bombers. (And they can do 200 dmg to aircraft with their rockets, too (,but i dont know if they target aircraft))

j5mello · Post by **j5mello** » 07 Mar 2007, 15:43

they shouldn't shoot at aircraft (though like norm in Spring they try to aim anyway

)

To give an idea of the power they currently have, its basically a flying Ural. So they will get a nerf and i'll poke fang about the fuel thing as well...

did some solo testing of the Aliens and lvl 2 is damn fun :)

FEAR THE ALIENS!!!

Decimator · Post by **Decimator** » 07 Mar 2007, 18:29

I'd suggest a simple damage nerf. The idea behind them was to really punish your enemy for not having anti-air, but atm they punish the enemy anti-air or not. Actually, why not make it only fire one missile that switches between the fire points? That ought to fix it.

Strategia · Post by **Strategia** » 07 Mar 2007, 20:47

chlue wrote:In my opinion the ground assault helis should use more fuel to fire their rockets.

A "Medium Cluster Bomber Helicopter" drops 10 * 200 dmg in a burst and then has to refuel. The missles from the assault helis do 455 dmg and burn only 10 of the 240 fuel. So if i assume 40 fuel for flying, they still can fire 20 rockets, with results in over 9000 potential dmg.

Additionall they are usefull against buildings and units, while you have to choose the right type, if you want to use bombers. (And they can do 200 dmg to aircraft with their rockets, too (,but i dont know if they target aircraft))

Bombers drop their load (eeeewwwww) and get the heck outta there, assault helis have to stay in range of their target (and hence in range of enemy AA) longer to cause more damage. Assault helis may have more HP than bombers, but they're more vulnerable to AA.

chlue · Post by **chlue** » 07 Mar 2007, 21:47

Strategia wrote:Bombers drop their load (eeeewwwww) and get the heck outta there, assault helis have to stay in range of their target (and hence in range of enemy AA) longer to cause more damage. Assault helis may have more HP than bombers, but they're more vulnerable to AA.

Yes, I am aware of that, but bombers fly over the target and then take a tour over the emeny base to catch as many anti-air fire as possible, while the assault heli stays at 750 range.

I did some test, tactical bomber vs assault heli. LOS on the target, only GD units. Radar for the emeny, so he see my units comming.

against medium anti air:
1 Bomber: Bomber dead
2 Bomber: target destroyed, 1 Bomber dead
1 assault heli: target destroyed, plenty of fuel left, little hp left.

against heavy anti air:
2 Bomber: Bomber dead, target survived with some hp
3 Bomber: target destroyed, one bomber dead
2 assault heli: target destroyed, plenty of fuel left, little hp left.

Ok, this will not apply against multiple targets. Then the bomber will get an advantage, because they drop their load faster, but at least against individual targets, the assault helis are much superior. I did not test the cluster bomber, but i think the result will be comparable.

I think the best solution is the one, that Decimator proposed. This will half their dps, so they will need to stay considerable longer in the hostile area. Reducing their range will probably hurt them to much, but I i still think their potential dmg with one load of fuel should be reduced, too. The cluster-bomber has 2000, the tactical bomber has 1775. So I think the assault should not have more than 4000 (currently >9000), to make the other ones more usefull. Maybee even reduce their dmg against buildings, but that could be to much.

edit: just realised, I forgot to give the emeny radar. Tried again and changed results a bit.

j5mello · Post by **j5mello** » 08 Mar 2007, 05:23

need more specifics as to that test:

What was the target
What was the number and lvl of AA turrets

also no radar makes the turrets alot less effective

chlue · Post by **chlue** » 08 Mar 2007, 14:30

j5mello wrote:need more specifics as to that test:

> What was the target
The anti-air turret. I simply build an anti-air-turret, a radar behind, and a camera to get LOS. Then I gave the turret and the radar to the emeny.

> What was the number and lvl of AA turrets
I used one GD-unit, so
1. Pamir IIAA - : Medium AAA Bunker
2. Pamir IIIAA - : Heavy AAA Tower

> also no radar makes the turrets alot less effective
I already changed that. The result was that some Bombers got destroyed and the Assault Helis had only some hp left. On my first try without Radar, they got only some scratches.

What I want to say with this test is, that in my opinion, the assault helis are in most cases superior to the specific Bombers, because they deliver their dmg quickly enough, to destroy the target, before they take to much dmg. Change them to fire only one missile per shot should make the Bombers superior in my tested cases.

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 09 Mar 2007, 05:09

I will look into it, do not fear..

However I will be heading home for spring break so I will be gone for a week.. though I may pop onto the forums when I get the chance..

knorke · Post by **knorke** » 11 Mar 2007, 00:42

Making the minimap radar icons half the size would really make the minimap feel less clogged.

escpeicially the mines and cameras are way too big.

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 11 Mar 2007, 07:28

Yes I am aware of the icon situation, I have been trying to think of more icon differentiation, I would like to have different icons for lvls, factories, so one.. Im open to any Ideas, especially some sort of visual idea.. I would however like to keep them somewhat neutral so they dont confuse.. Ie the simple square and so forth, just wondering if anyone has an Idea how I could vary those for higher lvls and special stuff..

BoredJoe · Post by **BoredJoe** » 11 Mar 2007, 11:55

Fanger wrote:Yes I am aware of the icon situation, I have been trying to think of more icon differentiation, I would like to have different icons for lvls, factories, so one.. Im open to any Ideas, especially some sort of visual idea.. I would however like to keep them somewhat neutral so they dont confuse.. Ie the simple square and so forth, just wondering if anyone has an Idea how I could vary those for higher lvls and special stuff..

how limited are you with icons? can you use colours outside of team colour for example?

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 11 Mar 2007, 19:28

you can as the teamcolor stuff is only grayscale, however Im worried that some sort of number or other system might be obscured on the minimap, or so forth..

Spring RTS Engine

EE version 0.173 Final (no more stuffs)