Absolute Annihilation 2.23

imbaczek · Post by **imbaczek** » 09 Nov 2006, 20:20

s/players/most players/. A minority of gamers has that something that enables them to not only identify a problem, but analyze it and come up with a good solution... But that's a small minority.

10053r · Post by **10053r** » 09 Nov 2006, 20:44

Well, as a player, here's a problem. I play Spring not so often, and the relative values for different units in AA changes completely every time I play it. This is a problem, because playing 2 hours a week or so (all I can fit in with my job) I never get good enough to win, which is frustrating.

It would seem to me that this much tweaking happening with each version is indicative of a more fundamental balance being lacking. By now we should be focusing in on the most minor of tweaks. The balance should be practically perfect. Perhaps the system of special damages and various weapon classes is so complicated that it is impossible to balance? If that is so, then perhaps Cadyr could take a step back and take a systematic approach to game balance.

Or perhaps I just suck. But it is very frustrating to have something that was a valid strategy a month ago not work.

MR.D · Post by **MR.D** » 09 Nov 2006, 22:17

This is just lame.

Watch the demo, there is nothing being used besides scouts.
And they do more damage, are better than light tanks, and cheaper..

FIX THIS CAYDR

http://mrd.str8-6.com/files/LAME-SCOUT-SPAM.zip

Peekaboom · Post by **Peekaboom** » 10 Nov 2006, 04:53

Yes, everyone here is hyperactive in a way. A new version comes out, and something "new pops up" but we yammer for a change / neef / buff without exploring "responses" to what the newest bitch might be. Instead we go right to the next version with 10,000 other changes, nullifing any chance for a consistent long term look at the mod.

EDIT: NVM, I watched the replay

Here is my response:

1) You're playing a map that give a unit like weasels (i.e. a fast vehicle) a HUGE advantage because they can use their speed and rarely get bogged down. That's why they beat flashes, they were faster and could be controlled to take less damage and kill more.

The players using flashes should have switched to a tank that has more life (is slower) but has a longer range. Using some dragon's teeth the weasels can't push past the tanks (stumpy's raiderS), you've stopped their move and are aheady by producing tanks once the initial harass phase has passed.

People aren't complaing aobut fleas on tigher hilly maps, same situation.

HOWEVER, weasels do seem to take 2 hits to many to die from fire. Their damage is fine, speed, etc.... just make LLT's kill them in 1-2 hits instead of 3.

jackalope · Post by **jackalope** » 10 Nov 2006, 05:02

MR.D wrote:This is just lame.

Watch the demo, there is nothing being used besides scouts.
And they do more damage, are better than light tanks, and cheaper..

FIX THIS CAYDR

http://mrd.str8-6.com/files/LAME-SCOUT-SPAM.zip

i maek wezel

REVENGE · Post by **REVENGE** » 10 Nov 2006, 08:16

Peekaboom wrote:Yes, everyone here is hyperactive in a way. A new version comes out, and something "new pops up" but we yammer for a change / neef / buff without exploring "responses" to what the newest bitch might be. Instead we go right to the next version with 10,000 other changes, nullifing any chance for a consistent long term look at the mod.

EDIT: NVM, I watched the replay

Here is my response:

1) You're playing a map that give a unit like weasels (i.e. a fast vehicle) a HUGE advantage because they can use their speed and rarely get bogged down. That's why they beat flashes, they were faster and could be controlled to take less damage and kill more.

The players using flashes should have switched to a tank that has more life (is slower) but has a longer range. Using some dragon's teeth the weasels can't push past the tanks (stumpy's raiderS), you've stopped their move and are aheady by producing tanks once the initial harass phase has passed.

People aren't complaing aobut fleas on tigher hilly maps, same situation.

HOWEVER, weasels do seem to take 2 hits to many to die from fire. Their damage is fine, speed, etc.... just make LLT's kill them in 1-2 hits instead of 3.

Yah, problem solved if Weasels die in 1 hit from llt. Otherwise, it has been proven that an entire solid line [as in 0 spacing] of llts cannot stop Weasel spam.

TradeMark · Post by **TradeMark** » 10 Nov 2006, 08:44

AK
Health: 225
Metal cost: 34
Damage: 35
ReloadTime: 0.4
Range: 220

Jeffy
Health: 185
Metal cost: 29
ReloadTime: 0.715
Damage: 50
Range: 180

Weasel
Health: 145
Metal cost: 24
ReloadTime: 0.75
Damage: 50
Range: 180

Regarding to those stats, i could say AK is better.

AK rush is powerful, but they die real fast if there is many llts killing them. Good for killing just HLT:s, if someone was that stupid to not build llts :P

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 10 Nov 2006, 09:02

TradeMark wrote:AK
Health: 225
Metal cost: 34
Damage: 35
ReloadTime: 0.4
Range: 220

Jeffy
Health: 185
Metal cost: 29
ReloadTime: 0.715
Damage: 50
Range: 180

Weasel
Health: 145
Metal cost: 24
ReloadTime: 0.75
Damage: 50
Range: 180

Regarding to those stats, i could say AK is better.

AK rush is powerful, but they die real fast if there is many llts killing them. Good for killing just HLT:s, if someone was that stupid to not build llts

Too bad that your stats are outdated!

Here are the 2.23 stats.

AK
Health: 210
Metal cost: 34
Damage: 34
ReloadTime: 0.4
Range: 220

Jeffy
Health: 185
Metal cost: 23
ReloadTime: 0.75
Damage: 50
Range: 175

Weasel
Health: 220
Metal cost: 24
ReloadTime: 0.75
Damage: 63
Range: 185

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 10 Nov 2006, 09:05

I don't even play vehicles usually, and while supporting in a 5v5 I abused the scout vehicles effectively. The superior speed adds a lot that the pure combat statistics don't account for. Response time is astronomical, and when I can pop a Warrior with a dozen or fewer Jeffy scout vehicles...

Trademark, you of all people should know response time and speed of movement are as important as dps and reload.

Hellspawn · Post by **Hellspawn** » 10 Nov 2006, 09:36

Fix scout units ASAP plx. T_T

They are like flashes in 1.42

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 10 Nov 2006, 09:41

Hellspawn wrote:Fix scout units ASAP plx. T_T

They are like flashes in 1.42

you liked 1.42

and we had 1.42 for MONTHS

Hellspawn · Post by **Hellspawn** » 10 Nov 2006, 10:17

Tr00f. But I hate OP weasels

Nixa · Post by **Nixa** » 10 Nov 2006, 10:29

oh cmon 1.42 were the glory days of spring :D

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 10 Nov 2006, 11:52

Day wrote:/me votes for a radical caydr - like t1 remake

i'm not caydr, but here is my radical solution:

- Remove the weapons of scout units
- Make flash slower, make gater a bit faster
- Reduce flash/gater hp by 25 %

This way scouts can only be used to scout, raiders (flash/gater can only be used to raid (because they die rather quickly now). And you HAVE to use stumpies/raiders to assault.

Also return panther to 2.21 stats, THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG with it in the first place!

Nixa · Post by **Nixa** » 10 Nov 2006, 12:12

*agrees with noize*

except on the fact of flash and gator speed, mayb to obtain a bit of difference, reduce flash damage slightly and keep the speed slightly faster than gators?

I dunno needs TESTING - the biggest phail in AA is lack of testing

even tho it is trial and error but yeh, maybe a little testing

As for the weasels, ok let them keep the gun, but reduce hp to say.. 120 and make the weapon half what it is now? or something like that, just make sure they still stay mex/con killers

Deathblane · Post by **Deathblane** » 10 Nov 2006, 12:15

Interesting. Aside from solving the current problem it would also kill the flea/jeffy/Weasel rush, and make heavier vehicles more useful.

Ishach · Post by **Ishach** » 10 Nov 2006, 12:28

Scout vehicles were perfect how they were just revert them

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 10 Nov 2006, 12:33

just revert everything to 2.21 ....

2.21 was better then 2.23, no?

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » 10 Nov 2006, 12:33

Levelers OWN scout rushes, if you use radar and move them ahead of the swarm. Seriously, they OWN them. Try it out.

1v0ry_k1ng · Post by **1v0ry_k1ng** » 10 Nov 2006, 12:38

Weasels and jeffys are an important part of OTA gameplay. the easiest thing to do would be to remove their ability to fire over eachother at llts etc and a mild reduction in dps (say 6-8) and an increased reload time, making them more hit and run and less powerful. I think gators/flashs are supposed to be the main arm of the fast tank force.. I think it would be better to just make stumpys/raiders more valid.. maybe a slight range increase?

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 2.23