Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03 - Page 3

Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Minutes of the meetings between Spring developers are archived here.
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Licho
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Licho » 06 Oct 2010, 17:58

Changes to lua from modder perspective are highly undesirable. There is now very significant complexity in gadgets - CA alone has 1MB of just gadget source codes in lua.

Also dealing with communication (sending data to unsynced/luaui, special spairs operator to read synced data in unsyced etc) is already putting significant barrier to development and causes lots of headaches.

(Even now its pretty complex, don't make it even more complex, or it will become simpler to tweak engine :)
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KDR_11k
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by KDR_11k » 06 Oct 2010, 19:00

Argh wrote:I think it's inevitable that people will want to do things like agent systems using a GPU in RTS games, for example, and I think that if we aren't talking about this now, and trying to resolve the synced / unsynced communications issues now, then it's going to remain one of the many things we can't do. If you've got a solution, let's hear it; my main point here is that we probably need to think about this stuff now, while people are tearing up Lua and the OpenGL state and are redefining what all this stuff is.

It'd be pretty dumb to tear everything up and break every game on the engine (for the third time in a year, no less) and make pretty heavy changes to how sim deals with the graphical world, and then not deal with this problem. It's one of those things that may bite us in the ass later.
If you want to add GPGPU stuff then GPGPU calculations should simply be a part of synced. You sound like you have no clue what the synced/unsynced architecture is for or how it operates. Here's a hint: Unsynced to synced communication is so "complicated" because you're sending data over the network.
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AF
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by AF » 06 Oct 2010, 19:42

smoth wrote:I do not want argh controlling the site. I do not for one second believe he will not abuse such power.
He has a proven track record of abusing power on his own sites and this one, as well as demonstrating significant marketing ineptitude in his marketing choices and PR in the past. How can we trust someone who makes generalised responses to posts that he didnt read but guessed their content to be able to react to the world at large for a project like this.

I and foreboding have tried in the past, but have had the rug swept from under our feet. The only real success has been forbs springinfo and my spring logo artwork/designs, every other attempt at pushing forward progress has met with illogical blocks or ideological opposition based on flawed premises.

There is no indication that what we do would be worth our time and be actually used. Else we'd be running on an uber swish site with a tonne of automation keeping everything shipshape, bucketloads of banners and artwork. Despite having the capability, our efforts are best focused on our own projects and situation, since building things for spring has such a low success rate of successful projects and mechanisms actually being adopted.
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SirMaverick
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by SirMaverick » 06 Oct 2010, 20:49

knorke wrote:ie PlayerAdded and PlayerRemoved http://springrts.com/mantis/view.php?id=2134
would be nice if such things could also be updated in the wiki otherwise nobody knows about them.
kthxbye.
PlayerRemoved exists since 0.81.0. It's a wiki...
Argh wrote:I'd need access rights.
No you don't. Distributed version control system. You fork it. They merge.
Licho wrote:Changes to lua from modder perspective are highly undesirable. There is now very significant complexity in gadgets - CA alone has 1MB of just gadget source codes in lua.
Many are synced only, e.g. CAI which is 104k.
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Neddie
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Neddie » 06 Oct 2010, 20:50

Now that I am in a better position financially I may have the time to reengage with Spring's need for contemporary marketing.
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AF
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by AF » 06 Oct 2010, 22:02

Neddie wrote:Now that I am in a better position financially I may have the time to reengage with Spring's need for contemporary marketing.
Your kind of marketing has brought no statistically demonstrable bonuses that cant be accounted for by the projects longevity, while having problems that I and others have raised before that mean it could very well damage us not help us.
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smoth
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by smoth » 06 Oct 2010, 22:38

af that doesn't mean it doesn't help.

Would you say my advertising methods have brought no interested persons?
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Neddie
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Neddie » 06 Oct 2010, 22:58

Apparently, my previous run of marketing is seated in such a distant past that you remember nothing substantive about it. To have statistically demonstrable benefits you have to have statistics. You don't. By that metric - or the lack thereof - nothing has. If it will improve your mood, feel free to discuss whatever problems you think you recall, but remember that people and practices change and what I might do now is not the same as what I did in the past. Image

In the past I experimented with a wide variety of options and foci, I kept my research and records private, and I eventually put the project behind me given the hostile and unproductive environment. If I were to embark upon a similar project now, I would much better equipped by comparison - I know what to focus on, I have a selection of tested tools and methods, I have the confidence to publish what I desire for the benefit of others, I know how little support there is to be had and I don't give a damn about the hostility. Image

Finally, my efforts do not preclude the efforts of others.
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AF
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by AF » 07 Oct 2010, 00:19

The point at hand was threefold:

1: Statistics we DO have that are meticulous, do not show a substantial rise in the lobby playerbase that isn't already accounted for by natural yearly progression and the maturity of the engine

2: Efforts to spread word of the engine are good in intention, but harm the engine because people find spring and are inducted into UI hell, and come away with a bad taste in their mouth, giving us a bad reputation. The taint of TA is also a horrible deterrent. There are plenty of other reasons behind this point which we endlessly discuss already.

3: Nobody should be advertising the engine to anybody but developers. They should focus on selling BA to users, not spring, Kernel panic not spring, Evo RTS not spring, etc etc
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liamdawe
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by liamdawe » 07 Oct 2010, 00:27

AF wrote:The point at hand was threefold:

1: Statistics we DO have that are meticulous, do not show a substantial rise in the lobby playerbase that isn't already accounted for by natural yearly progression and the maturity of the engine

2: Efforts to spread word of the engine are good in intention, but harm the engine because people find spring and are inducted into UI hell, and come away with a bad taste in their mouth, giving us a bad reputation. The taint of TA is also a horrible deterrent. There are plenty of other reasons behind this point which we endlessly discuss already.

3: Nobody should be advertising the engine to anybody but developers. They should focus on selling BA to users, not spring, Kernel panic not spring, Evo RTS not spring, etc etc
This plus a million, i've been with spring since the first videos before a release was ever made and i still get stuck a lot on different bits with the different lobbies.
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Neddie
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Neddie » 07 Oct 2010, 00:32

I stopped advertising Spring as an engine some time in 2007. I've been vocally advocating the advertisement of individual games since, particularly while I was conducting spot work for 1944, Gundam RTS and Kernel Panic. I stopped all marketing work related to TA derivative projects with NOTA and CA in early 2008.
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Argh
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Argh » 07 Oct 2010, 03:26

Changes to lua from modder perspective are highly undesirable. There is now very significant complexity in gadgets - CA alone has 1MB of just gadget source codes in lua.

Also dealing with communication (sending data to unsynced/luaui, special spairs operator to read synced data in unsyced etc) is already putting significant barrier to development and causes lots of headaches.

(Even now its pretty complex, don't make it even more complex, or it will become simpler to tweak engine :)
I agree.

Between that and lurker's post, I'm convinced that there's no way forward that won't break too much to be worth the trouble. So I guess that the status quo, with all of its flaws, is all we can do.

I am content that we've at least thought about this stuff for a bit. I've seen a lot of stuff in the GPGPU world that convinces me that that's where the next big thing in RTS gameplay is going to be, but if we can't fit it within Spring's synced setup, I guess that that's just not possible.




On marketing:

If the results aren't good, we can always ask if other people want the job.

I'm hoping Tobi / Licho just give me a chance here. At worst, given what I've asked for the ability to do, not much would change, especially at first, and none of it would be irreversible. And I haven't asked for godlike powers here, just the minimum I need to do the job.


In terms of policy I'd pursue, here's the basic outline:

1. I'd talk to all the people maintaining currently-available games, and help them help themselves in various ways- things like providing a solid descriptive page on the Wiki, having a press kit, providing us with effective banner representations, etc.

2. I'd do various things with the front page to improve its effectiveness and impact. I don't think I'll need to change anything structurally or change the frame.

3. Once we have things in place and people have been energized a bit, I'll outline some further things we can do that should help promote projects and the engine itself.

4. At this time, I'm not going to bother worrying about the overall maturity of the platform or the various wrinkles AF's brought up such a lack of a good stock UI. I suspect these are problems that will be solved when people feel motivated to solve them.

AF, on that topic... you've got the skills, so why not sit down and do something about that? I am sure it would be welcomed.



I think that marketing is a goal in and of itself- more eyes and more interest means more energy and more possibility. How that all ends up working out can't be planned for.

Ultimately, success means that Spring is seen as attractive and useful, and that's something that can very easily snowball if the conditions are right.
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zerver
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by zerver » 07 Oct 2010, 03:35

This is my plan right now. Copying the EXPORT table eats some CPU, it could become a problem if it contains too much data.

Code: Select all

	/**
	 * @brief multiThreadLua
	 *
	 * LuaHandle threading mode for Spring MT:
	 * -1: Single Lua state (fully backwards compatible but slow)
	 * 0: Dual Lua states, except for LuaUI (communication via _G.EXPORT --> SYNCED.EXPORT)
	 * 1: Dual Lua states throughout (best performance, communication only via SendToUnsynced)
	 */
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Argh
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Argh » 07 Oct 2010, 03:43

What's the difference between _G.EXPORT and SendToUnsynced, in terms of use cases?

Is the traffic issue going to be a problem if all synced operations have to do messaging via SendToUnsynced?

Just wondering about this issue atm. I don't use a lot of GG except for global stuff on the synced side (which I presume would be unchanged).
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smoth
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by smoth » 07 Oct 2010, 04:37

you already have the minimum you need as sir mav pointed out.
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Argh
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Argh » 07 Oct 2010, 04:45

I'd need to be able to commit changes. Otherwise it'd be impractical.
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smoth
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by smoth » 07 Oct 2010, 05:08

Do you really? You can setup php and apache on your on computer. There is absolutely no reason you need to test on the live server. Setup a development environment either on your os or in a vm.
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Argh
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Argh » 07 Oct 2010, 05:49

I'm not envisioning any changes to the php atm. I'll just be changing some content. I think there's a misunderstanding here- I don't have any plans to do any radical makeovers here, or do anything potentially dangerous.

Perhaps in the future we'll want to make some changes, but they should be discussed and agreed upon. But the first steps will be pretty small.

I don't really care how we do it, and I'm fine if it's done in a way that ensures I can't do anything major without agreement, but it needs to be in a way where I can make minor changes quickly and regularly, and without any red tape.

The big stuff is largely not front-page changes anyhow. Marketing is not just some banner ads, there's a process that needs to be executed and a lot of work that I'd have to do with community members.

But they're both necessary. One without the other isn't going to be sufficient, and I can't take on the responsibility if I can't actually execute.

I can't talk to a community member about highlighting their latest release and distributing stuff to the media, for example, if I can't make that presentation on the front page and drive interest.
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smoth
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by smoth » 07 Oct 2010, 06:13

save page as html, edit? or better yet firebug
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Argh
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Re: Dev meeting minutes 2010-10-03

Post by Argh » 07 Oct 2010, 06:19

The image rotators and other things won't allow for that. I need a method where I can sit down and do it and make it live when I'm happy with it.

I'd need to be able to do stuff like:

1. Take down all the banners except for one, because we're highlighting a Game of the Week or highlighting Spring's features to potential game developers.

2. Write new text in the Announcement area to talk about stuff that's going on.

3. Change out the videos and screenshots, if there's a need.

IOW, not major stuff, just the bare minimum I need to get the job done.
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