P.U.R.E. RC4.2 - Page 9

P.U.R.E. RC4.2

WolfeGames and projects headed by Argh.

Moderators: Moderators, Content Developer

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22300
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by smoth » 17 Mar 2009, 06:37

Google_Frog wrote:By the sound of things Argh and Eman think pure has reasonable balance and everyone else who's played it doesn't. I think we need some 1v1s so Argh can either see how we're doing it wrong or get some useful feedback if it turns out we aren't.
send him some replays of you exploiting units. He has asked several times for them.
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Argh » 17 Mar 2009, 06:38

We'd welcome that. And we'd certainly welcome any replays showing that something's very badly balanced.

I don't really get the sense that any of the comments about balance are reflective of any real play-time, and Google_Frog was the only guy we played who even gave us game at all, when I took a "night off" to see what newbies were doing with it. Most people obviously found the whole thing very hard to deal with, playing me and Eman, even if we were being super-nice about it.

I think a lot of it has to do with buildings.

But a lot of it has to do with utilizing all of the mixed-arms stuff. It's like the whole HeavyMech / Assault Shell thing- I simply don't believe it, because I know that in RC4 that's basically impossible to pull off. HeavyMechs get eaten by a variety of Overmind counters at a cost-efficient basis, and Assault Shells are worthless vs. entrenched defenses that include troops in buildings. If he'd said Assault Tanks, I might have bought it, as we're fairly certain they're OP atm for cost, but we're not entirely sure yet. The Shell version is basically just a raider, and only works decisively against hard targets if you really mass them.

Hopefully people's understanding will improve, once the SP missions are in place (how to exploit buildings is no. 1 on the list of things to teach about). But I really think that thus far, I'm hearing from OTA-centric players about how they tried playing it in OTA ways, and they'd get crushed by me or Eman pretty easily.
Last edited by Argh on 17 Mar 2009, 07:02, edited 2 times in total.
0 x

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22300
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by smoth » 17 Mar 2009, 06:46

I think it will be difficult you need an experience group to really start showing the high level exploits. Unfortunately, eman might not cut it as you two know each other IRL and he probably plays similar. fuck what I am talking about you know all that shit, I guess it is mainly for people like google. He looks like he might make a strong sandbag. What about it google?
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Argh » 17 Mar 2009, 07:00

Actually, one of the main reasons why Eman's playing is that he and I have very different styles, and he and I both like playing different main strats from start. It's a tech-tier game, so you kinda have to structure a serious rush around what you're going to buy at Tier 2. It makes it hard to predict what's going to happen, in a serious game on a serious map like Mesa. Large maps aren't nearly as tight, but meh, they're just there for fun and large team fights anyhow.

There are probably some things that are arguably OP/UP for cost, but we don't think there are any things that simply can't be countered at all, and we're hoping people play enough games to find them, if we've missed something. Thus far, though, I don't get the sense that people have actually put in enough time to give us anything to go on, and without replays it's impossible for me to judge whether they're screwing up or there's a major problem we've overlooked.

If people find a real example of this, the time to tell me is now. But I picked up on Otherside's post because, frankly, it's really hard for me to imagine that his scenario actually happened in RC4 unless both players were playing it wrong. I've played something like 60 hours, which is enough to have a good sense of what's actually possible, and it's simply improbable that that strat / counter even slightly worked in RC4.

At any rate, we're certainly open to challenge play with anybody who feels like they know some neat way to kick our butts. Just drop us a line here tomorrow, we'll show up in the Lobby tomorrow around 5PM EST.

Just be prepared to play on a competitive map, and to play like you mean it. The game's not really designed for big maps on a 1v1, and it tends to be over very quickly. Just warning ye- when we're serious about balance, we play on Mesa. Not on Oceanside, which is porc city, or on Unpleasantville, which is probably not even balanced correctly for serious play atm. We just like blowing whole cities up and walking Overlords through parking lots ;)
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Argh » 17 Mar 2009, 07:25

I have some other good news.

I've finally found an acceptable way to get the textures compressed.

I may have to tweak a few things before I'll be entirely happy, but whatever. That cuts the size of the game waaaaay down (full install including Chickens < 300MB, bare-bones 250MB or thereabouts, and less if I offer a music-free version), and should help people with older hardware get the game running. Heck, it might even be part of why the ATi people are hosed. Dunno until people test.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14606
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Forboding Angel » 17 Mar 2009, 07:51

If google says something is unbalanced, it's prolly worth looking into. The guy has annoying character flaw of finding the weak point and exploiting it to no end, which makes him an extremely useful tester :-)

<3 my google
0 x

User avatar
thesleepless
Posts: 417
Joined: 24 Oct 2007, 04:49

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by thesleepless » 17 Mar 2009, 12:12

downloaded the new version, but still crashes on building with resistance
0 x

Google_Frog
Moderator
Posts: 2442
Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 09:24

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Google_Frog » 17 Mar 2009, 12:21

After more games with Sak on mesa we found a few strats that get close to beating t2 mech spam but they never did.

Maybe mechs draining -60e instead of 60e is a typo that gives them the advantage since res never need to make E power plants.
0 x

Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
Posts: 2665
Joined: 28 Nov 2006, 13:22

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Saktoth » 17 Mar 2009, 12:22

Replay is here. This prettymuch shows the final state of the only viable strategies we could find. Google probably wastes too much time capturing weak buildings, he could have spent those troops more wisely, but once you have a serious t2 force buildings can be run over relatively easily. He probably also should have taken out my second factory and the expanded economy up there.

Im afraid we cant play you at 5 PM EST, it is 7 AM here. We are Australian.

Heavy Mechs
Rush to mech is the best strategy. Reclaiming the floaty bricks, you can get your first mech out by about 2 minutes. The only viable counter is assault wheels. The regen on the flame assault wheels means you need at least 2 mechs firing at once in order to overcome the regen, so mechs must mass and cannot push out early. Assault wheels are Overminds best chance of winning, but ultimately, mechs are probably better.

The overmind missile support vehicles can be okay due to their ability to shoot over obstacles and skirmish. They can be used on Unpleasantville to reasonable effect (hiding behind buildings, but ultimately lose to mech (esp, once the buildings are gone).

Occupying buildings can contain mechs early on, but they break out pretty fast and can arty the buildings with their missiles.

We have tried prettymuch every other unit in the game against mechs. Nothing else matches up.

Mechs also make 60 energy. If you go mech, you do not need an energy economy. Are they meant to DRAIN 60 energy?

Maps/Econ
Please at least make it possible to play on the standard spring maps. There is really very little reason to customize PUREs economy so that it only works on maps with 10x the metal of standard Spring ones. Having to spam mexes all over due to the solid metal map is relatively irritating to begin with. At least include a metalmult mod option.

Buildings/Targetting
Units should not try to shoot through buildings if they have another, viable target. I know this may be hard to code but its pretty essential and a pain to micro, esp if you waste a rocket volley on a building.

Version Control
Everyone who joins always desyncs because they dont have the latest version. This is a pain in the butt and often takes ages to fix for new players (wasnt a problem for google and i though).
Last edited by Saktoth on 17 Mar 2009, 13:11, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
lurker
Posts: 3842
Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 06:13

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by lurker » 17 Mar 2009, 13:00

Argh, just grab any recent build or do a standard !rebuild, load a game of pure in any way, wait for the music to kick in, and tell me if you do or do not get a double segfault.
Edit: In fact, I encourage everyone here to perform this test.
0 x

User avatar
Otherside
Posts: 2296
Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Otherside » 17 Mar 2009, 13:13

Derp a Derp Derp argh needs to listen
0 x

User avatar
AF
AI Developer
Posts: 20669
Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by AF » 17 Mar 2009, 14:27

A bug tracker may be of use here
0 x

User avatar
1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 17 Mar 2009, 14:48

heres an idea(s)

1)
get all of pure into two .sdz files.
one that has all the textures etc
one that has the unit .fbi
that way, I wont have to download 350 megs repeatedly and have about 10 .sdz's to compare sizes of when someone loses sync.
if your going to package it in a .zip, put the folders in the zip.
ie, the zip contains a /mods and /maps folders with the correct files in the correct locations.

2)
release a barebones version that it actually barebones.
ie, it dosnt come with the maps, music etc

3)
when you release diffrent versions, make sure they have diffrent intenal names next time so people cant join games that they lack the latest versions of

4)
I crash whenever resistance make a structure, i reckon thiss shouldnt happen

5)
why the hell is this 350 megs. every other mod manages to be under 50. there is less units than in a ta mod by a factor of ten.

6)
put build menus in the order of use.
ie, first mex, then fusion, then factory etc
resistance build order is whacky.

7)
I want the default GUI but I cant get it for some reason, the squashed PURE gui buildmenu is apparently my only option

8 )
balance your mod to work with the default spring maps.
atm its only balanced to use pure maps which have totallly whacko metal values.
it would take no effort to make the metal output of your maps similar to that of all other maps and balance metal extractors accordingly.

9)
I have downloaded several 'bum versions' where for some reason all the buildings and trees etc count as hostiles and units attack them. how about you cleanse these or make a release with a diffrent name so we can sync
Last edited by 1v0ry_k1ng on 17 Mar 2009, 15:37, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
Otherside
Posts: 2296
Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Otherside » 17 Mar 2009, 15:07

about the file size of PURE

The reason its much bigger than *A mods is

1) *A mods used otacotent as a base hence the file size remains small

2) secondly most *A mods are still mostly composed of 3do models which are much smaller in file size than s3o textured models (cause of the per poly texturing method in 3do's and sharing a texture sheet)

3) most *A mods if not all dont include music

4) all of PURE's models including world builder models are s3o and have textures on a per unit basis (as well as a texture2 for specularity/reflectivity)

5) PURE has oversized textures and argh hasnt compressed them making the file size bigger aswell as the game laggier

6) Dont compare original content mods to *A mods in terms of file size (and kdr's mini mods dont count as they have very few units which are usually not textured)
0 x

User avatar
lurker
Posts: 3842
Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 06:13

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by lurker » 17 Mar 2009, 15:23

If you want to make a good post with several points, you have to have all your points make sense. Your remark about base content when base content is only a couple megabytes hurts your entire post.
0 x

User avatar
Otherside
Posts: 2296
Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Otherside » 17 Mar 2009, 15:33

the second point clarify's why otacontent itself is small

BA's increased file size even though its small is due to mass widgets/lups and other stuff (aswell as possibly new models not included in otacontent)

Other mods deffo use models not included in base content but still remain relatively small

even CA isnt that big if you consider the amount of s3o's included already but still uses alot of 3do's (alot of which arent in otacontent)

so shush
Last edited by Otherside on 17 Mar 2009, 15:40, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 17 Mar 2009, 15:39

Otherside wrote: 5) PURE has oversized textures and argh hasnt compressed them making the file size bigger aswell as the game laggier
maybe like, fix this too
Otherside wrote: 6) Dont compare original content mods to *A mods in terms of file size (and kdr's mini mods dont count as they have very few units which are usually not textured)
actually I was comparing it to SWIW, S44 and EE, all of which have very nice textures, models and FX whilst all being under 60 megs.
what this suggests is that argh is doin it wrong
0 x

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22300
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by smoth » 17 Mar 2009, 16:01

I think ivory king does have a point though 300 megs is a lot but how many models are in it?

You can open the zip and see what each directory weighs to find out. I am curious myself. I can bet the maps add a good bit to the size.
0 x

User avatar
Otherside
Posts: 2296
Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by Otherside » 17 Mar 2009, 16:04

smoth wrote:I think ivory king does have a point though 300 megs is a lot but how many models are in it?

You can open the zip and see what each directory weighs to find out. I am curious myself. I can bet the maps add a good bit to the size.
CA has more S3o's than pure

and is only around 70 mb's (it also has a crapton more LUA etc)

im sure world builder contributes alot to the file size of PURE (not at home so cant check)

I dont think the maps would add much to the file size as they are fairly bland and lack features (they are added with WB) aswell as not being particularly big.
0 x

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22300
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: P.U.R.E. RC4.2

Post by smoth » 17 Mar 2009, 16:13

Otherside wrote:CA has more S3o's than pure
many are kitbashes of saktoths model.
Otherside wrote:and is only around 70 mb's (it also has a crapton more LUA etc)
gundam is smaller. so what?
Otherside wrote:im sure world builder contributes alot to the file size of PURE (not at home so cant check)
that counts as MODELS
Otherside wrote:I dont think the maps would add much to the file size as they are fairly bland and lack features (they are added with WB) aswell as not being particularly big.
the maps have textures that is where the size comes from. each gundam map I have made is ~20-30 megs each.

just look at the extracted directories. I'd do it but I am at work.
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “Argh's Projects”

cron