Balanced Annihilation 7.31 - Page 2

Balanced Annihilation 7.31

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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Jazcash » 28 Mar 2011, 12:02

IMO any major changes in BA such as "Should LLT fire over Arm Solar?" should be run past a select group of experienced BA players. Say, 10-20 of them. For the change to make it in, you could say, 75% or more of them have to vote for the change for it to go through.

I could probably write up a giant report on balance if I had the time, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with the majority of it, but there will always be a few nick nacks that nobody really seems to be sure on. I agree with most of what Triton's said, and many other players have said in the past about certain balance issues. I think anybody who's played BA for more than say, 2 years, has similar views on certain balance issues.


Personally, I'm in favour of LLT being able to shoot over Arm Solar, but it would be nice to hear the opinions of other experienced BA players too. Perhaps you could setup a dedicated site or private forum or something then select a bunch of experienced players that can access it so decisions can be made about these issues? If we did it properly with arguments for and against issues justifying why somebody votes the way they do, it could be quite effective.
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Regret
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Regret » 28 Mar 2011, 12:21

Jazcash wrote:IMO any major changes in BA such as "Should LLT fire over Arm Solar?" should be run past a select group of experienced BA players. Say, 10-20 of them. For the change to make it in, you could say, 75% or more of them have to vote for the change for it to go through.

Personally, I'm in favour of LLT being able to shoot over Arm Solar, but it would be nice to hear the opinions of other experienced BA players too. Perhaps you could setup a dedicated site or private forum or something then select a bunch of experienced players that can access it so decisions can be made about these issues? If we did it properly with arguments for and against issues justifying why somebody votes the way they do, it could be quite effective.
Experienced player != good game design/balance decisions. See past CA development, people were allowed to vote on issues just as you suggest.

Niobium wrote:The reason the jamming is so inconsistent is because springs jamming works on a grid, and that the grid in BA isn't very detailed. This screenshot shows what I mean, the red areas are locations that are successfully jammed. Note how the mine that is being built is not jammed. Also; the jamming of a minelayer is always a 5-square 'plus' shape.

http://i.imgur.com/m5eMK.jpg
The grid resolution can't be adjusted?
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Beherith
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Beherith » 28 Mar 2011, 12:26

Losgrid resize is too expensive :(
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Jazcash » 28 Mar 2011, 12:33

Regret wrote: Experienced player != good game design/balance decisions. See past CA development, people were allowed to vote on issues just as you suggest.
I suppose, but generally the more experienced a player the better idea of balance they have. Of course there will be exceptions but there are with just about anything.

BA's design has changed as well. Balanced changes used to be made based upon 1v1 gameplay. Now, 1v1 is a bucket-load less popular than it used to be and the focus should be on designing BA for teamplay games.

Regardless of how balance is done, I still think certain player's opinions should be respected, considered and debated properly before any big decisions are forced into BA on impulse.
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Regret
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Regret » 28 Mar 2011, 12:37

Jazcash wrote:Regardless of how balance is done, I still think certain player's opinions should be respected, considered and debated properly before any big decisions are forced into BA on impulse.
I don't remember when someone forced a big decision into BA on impulse without consideration. Do you?
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Jazcash » 28 Mar 2011, 12:56

Regret wrote:
Jazcash wrote:Regardless of how balance is done, I still think certain player's opinions should be respected, considered and debated properly before any big decisions are forced into BA on impulse.
I don't remember when someone forced a big decision into BA on impulse without consideration. Do you?
A few big changes were made which I can't ever remember being discussed publicly. The two that come to mind are the scout nerf and commando injection.
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Regret
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Regret » 28 Mar 2011, 13:11

Jazcash wrote:A few big changes were made which I can't ever remember being discussed publicly. The two that come to mind are the scout nerf and commando injection.
Publicly probably not. Why change the issue? You were arguing for private discussion.

Do you think TFC didn't take things into consideration when making the changes?
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Jazcash » 28 Mar 2011, 13:24

Regret wrote: Publicly probably not. Why change the issue? You were arguing for private discussion.

Do you think TFC didn't take things into consideration when making the changes?
Depends if he discussed it publicly or not. For all I know, it could have just been his sole decision. He wasn't a regular player of BA, I didn't believe it should be all up to him to make balance changes. Agreed, for the most part it was discussed in the BA threads, but I still think a lot of the balance changes were all him.

No discredit to him ofc, I agree with most of the changes he made. It's just I wish the changes were more of a general agreement rather than the decision of one or two people and were made clear publicly before going ahead.

Tbh, I guess it's fine how it is, discussing them in the BA sticky threads, although, it is a bit of a jumble and makes the devs job of finding relevant posts and points very hard when people's opinions are just scattered all over the place. I think it would make more sense to dedicate a proper place to discuss specific balance changes.
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Johannes
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Johannes » 28 Mar 2011, 13:30

Scout nerf was discussed a lot, maybe just not with you.

Though then there's stuff like croc/panther/goli buffs, which got pretty mixed responses from the very start. I would not say it was impulsive though, even if I never agreed with it.


And being a good player does not necessarily mean you are a good designer, but it does mean you understand the kind of impact a change will have on gameplay better. If you'd have a good designer who's a mediocre player, he should still ask the best players if the changes he planned actually help toward the design goals he has.


Btw it wouldn't be a bad change if minelayer never cloaked the mines while they're building, I mean it's still hard to spot the 3 sec blip. There's so little you can do about mines as it is, even if they're totally underused.
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Niobium
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Niobium » 28 Mar 2011, 13:38

Jazcash wrote:BA's design has changed as well. Balanced changes used to be made based upon 1v1 gameplay. Now, 1v1 is a bucket-load less popular than it used to be and the focus should be on designing BA for teamplay games.
I would say that this is the main outstanding issue in regards to BA balance, it hasn't been given anywhere near enough attention (almost none). I think that there is a lot of potential to improve the game overall through larger-game/late-game focused changes, especially given their popularity.
Last edited by Niobium on 28 Mar 2011, 14:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Johannes
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Johannes » 28 Mar 2011, 13:50

Nixa wrote:
Johannes wrote:How about giving fatboy some of its range back? I think it should be able to outshoot pitbulls and vipers at least (like it could in ~<110 grav), if not the full 800 it used to have listed.
Whilst not a bad idea, I think their stats (other than range and velocity) were largely balanced for >110 gravity in previous generations of BA.
So it was largely balanced to be a golly but much worse? :?



I don't think there's any need for any large-scale focused changes. The main issues are about the same regardless of gamesize I think, ie. air attacks (besides blades) are too much about luck, and t1->t2 transition is too big single step (too big initial cost but also too powerful units/structures compared to t1).
And how in many phases in the game (depending on map though) scouting is way too difficult which makes the aforementioned things even worse.
Changes should be done in a way that benefits all gamesizes and maps.
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Jazcash » 28 Mar 2011, 13:58

Johannes wrote:Scout nerf was discussed a lot, maybe just not with you.
Oh. :cry:
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Regret
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Regret » 28 Mar 2011, 14:02

Johannes wrote:Scout nerf was discussed a lot, maybe just not with you.
I think this is what Jazcash has a problem with, he wants things to be discussed with him specifically. At least that's the impression I got so far.
Jazcash wrote:Tbh, I guess it's fine how it is, discussing them in the BA sticky threads, although, it is a bit of a jumble and makes the devs job of finding relevant posts and points very hard when people's opinions are just scattered all over the place. I think it would make more sense to dedicate a proper place to discuss specific balance changes.
BA subforum is already dedicated to discussions about BA. You are free to make topics about balance issues.
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HectorMeyer
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by HectorMeyer » 28 Mar 2011, 14:22

This democracy of experienced players thing really is no guarantee for good results at all.

TFC seemed to value the opinion of a few vocal active community members in the lobby a lot which lead to quite a few questionable, half halfheartedly thought through and implemented changes like e.g. increased vulcan turnrate or reduced energycost of panther.
Last edited by HectorMeyer on 28 Mar 2011, 14:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Jazcash » 28 Mar 2011, 14:24

Regret wrote:
Johannes wrote:Scout nerf was discussed a lot, maybe just not with you.
I think this is what Jazcash has a problem with, he wants things to be discussed with him specifically. At least that's the impression I got so far.
No, I just want to know what balance issues are planned for the upcoming releases. They should be public and any changes made should be thoroughly discussed with a significant number of people before going through.

As is obvious, I would like a say in balance, but then, so would most people. I remember you bringing up a similar point a while back as if this is about me. It really isn't, I'd just like certain things to get done which is why I tend to end up bringing up the same bug reports and balance suggestions in almost every new BA release thread for the past 2 years. They've only recently been properly considered, whether that's because of my experience in BA or because I wasn't shouting loud enough I don't know. But some bugs are only just being fixed which I've been reporting for years.

I'm just happy there's progress now, I'll help in anyway I can and I am. Perhaps I'll write up a nice report after all :regret:
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Regret
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Regret » 28 Mar 2011, 14:55

Jazcash wrote:Perhaps you could setup a dedicated site or private forum or something then select a bunch of experienced players that can access it so decisions can be made about these issues?
Jazcash wrote:No, I just want to know what balance issues are planned for the upcoming releases. They should be public and any changes made should be thoroughly discussed with a significant number of people before going through.
You use contradictory suggestions. Erase the contradictory parts and you are left with you wanting in on balance changes as your sole motivation.
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Jazcash » 28 Mar 2011, 15:27

Regret wrote:
Jazcash wrote:Perhaps you could setup a dedicated site or private forum or something then select a bunch of experienced players that can access it so decisions can be made about these issues?
Jazcash wrote:No, I just want to know what balance issues are planned for the upcoming releases. They should be public and any changes made should be thoroughly discussed with a significant number of people before going through.
You use contradictory suggestions. Erase the contradictory parts and you are left with you wanting in on balance changes as your sole motivation.
The discussions should be be between specific players, but viewable by everybody is what I meant. Otherwise you just end up with free-for-all threads like we currently have where you have all sorts of people making their comments and suggestions, some of them have hardly played the game. It makes the devs job of finding relevant points difficult, especially when they're hidden beneath a bunch of off-topic posts due to the nature of this forum.

Specific topics on specific balance issues with a proper format of discussion being discussed by experienced or well judged players is what I was getting at.

Fatty, Niob and Beherith have said before it's difficult to keep track of all the issues people raise, especially when there's so many irrelevant posts around in so many different threads of different dates.

What I'm proposing is a sub-forum that only specific people can post topics in but everybody can view. For example, you'd have a topic such as "Should LLT fire over Arm Solar?" with the question and necessary information in the original post with a poll. To vote in the poll, you must make a post stating what you voted for and the reasons why you voted for it.

Just a little organisation is all I'm asking.
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dansan
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by dansan » 28 Mar 2011, 16:10

Jazcash wrote:What I'm proposing is a sub-forum that only specific people can post topics in but everybody can view. For example, you'd have a topic such as "Should LLT fire over Arm Solar?" with the question and necessary information in the original post with a poll. To vote in the poll, you must make a post stating what you voted for and the reasons why you voted for it.

Just a little organisation is all I'm asking.
A bug tracker is good at tracking issues. Issues can be used like a forum thread. Tracker can be opened to read for everybody, but posting allowed only to a closed group. If desired a FFA-forum-thread can be linked to in the description or a posting. Don't know about polls though...
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Regret
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Regret » 28 Mar 2011, 16:43

dansan wrote:A bug tracker is good at tracking issues. Issues can be used like a forum thread. Tracker can be opened to read for everybody, but posting allowed only to a closed group. If desired a FFA-forum-thread can be linked to in the description or a posting. Don't know about polls though...
A bug tracker is indeed a great idea.
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation 7.31

Post by Jazcash » 28 Mar 2011, 17:54

Regret wrote:
dansan wrote:A bug tracker is good at tracking issues. Issues can be used like a forum thread. Tracker can be opened to read for everybody, but posting allowed only to a closed group. If desired a FFA-forum-thread can be linked to in the description or a posting. Don't know about polls though...
A bug tracker is indeed a great idea.
Sounds good to me.
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