Everybody loves lego!

Everybody loves lego!

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Hobo Joe
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Everybody loves lego!

Post by Hobo Joe »

KaiserJ wrote:20 models assembled; also once lego 2 is ready i will be devoting more time to this.
No offense but a game full of lego assembled models isn't going to be played, I hope Regret isn't taking submissions like that. They aren't bad models per se, but they are very stylistic and do NOT fit with everything else.
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manolo_
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by manolo_ »

Hobo Joe wrote:
KaiserJ wrote:20 models assembled; also once lego 2 is ready i will be devoting more time to this.
No offense but a game full of lego assembled models isn't going to be played, I hope Regret isn't taking submissions like that. They aren't bad models per se, but they are very stylistic and do NOT fit with everything else.
mr. d remodells core, so use the lego units for arm (or how u gonna call them)
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JohannesH
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by JohannesH »

manolo_ wrote:
Hobo Joe wrote:
KaiserJ wrote:20 models assembled; also once lego 2 is ready i will be devoting more time to this.
No offense but a game full of lego assembled models isn't going to be played, I hope Regret isn't taking submissions like that. They aren't bad models per se, but they are very stylistic and do NOT fit with everything else.
mr. d remodells core, so use the lego units for arm (or how u gonna call them)
With lego models itd be pretty obvious to call them leg
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Jazcash »

JohannesH wrote: With lego models itd be pretty obvious to call them leg
Wooooow.
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Tronic
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Tronic »

I don't think the lego modeling is going to be useful for anything but concept design. It is hard to think about turning the models into low poly versions, suitable for the game. Models should also have reflectivity textures, glow effects and other features that the lego models do not have - and that would need to be done with real modeling software anyway.
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KaiserJ
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by KaiserJ »

Tronic wrote:I don't think the lego modeling is going to be useful for anything but concept design.
why?
It is hard to think about turning the models into low poly versions, suitable for the game.
the polycounts, even without culled faces, are lower than most CA models. look at them and count the faces. divide square faces by two.
Models should also have reflectivity textures, glow effects and other features that the lego models do not have
once i get the skin finished, then im making a reflectivity map, a teamcolor map, and a bumpmap. glow effects are done with emitters and have nothing to do with constructing a model.
and that would need to be done with real modeling software anyway.
err what? i use 3d max. i assure you it's quite real.

anyways, whats your point? you've already told us you don't have any time to contribute anything meaningful, and since nobody else is offering models, without lego this project is a no-go.

edit : i already KNOW people here don't like the models. im not posting pics of them anymore on this forum until i get the skin into a "final/acceptable" form, because they are NOT yet in such a form. only regret gets to see, because he's the man in charge.

and i will re-state this : 1/2 hour to make a lego model. at least 3 to make a "real" model. if you know a way i can create geometry from scratch, uvmap it super fast, pack the uvmap, and then create a texture in half an hour, please tell me, and i will do that instead. but i'm 99% sure that its impossible any other way.
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KaiserJ
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by KaiserJ »

No offense but a game full of lego assembled models isn't going to be played, I hope Regret isn't taking submissions like that. They aren't bad models per se, but they are very stylistic and do NOT fit with everything else.
ok im just going to edit that out. what the fk though dude, where are the other "submissions" going to come from... and how do the models not fit? im making an entire faction using the same shapes and skin....

if anyone has questions or concerns about these models, just tell me directly on the lobby please. all that posting about them in this thread, based on non-current images and information will do is send me into a rage. thx.
Last edited by KaiserJ on 30 Mar 2010, 22:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Jazcash
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Jazcash »

I salute you Kaiser. Your lego models make me hard and your posts make me tingle with delight.

Image
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Tronic
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Tronic »

the polycounts, even without culled faces, are lower than most CA models. look at them and count the faces. divide square faces by two.
Perhaps I am underestimating the power of modern graphics cards.
once i get the skin finished, then im making a reflectivity map, a teamcolor map, and a bumpmap. glow effects are done with emitters and have nothing to do with constructing a model.
Glow effects should also use emission texture on the model.
err what? i use 3d max. i assure you it's quite real.
That lego thing is a 3dsmax plugin? Or did you actually mean that you do post-process the models in 3dsmax?
anyways, whats your point? you've already told us you don't have any time to contribute anything meaningful, and since nobody else is offering models, without lego this project is a no-go.
The CA team has managed to create a lot of models without using lego cad. Even if you cannot create all the models instantly, the project is certainly doable and it has many other nice goals besides being OTA-free. Just use old BA models as placeholders and let people gradually replace them with new content.

The important thing is to release early and release often, and to make it clear to the users that the mod is not finished and that help is appreciated. Otherwise the project will simply die long before it is finished.

I would recommend developing in a git repository and giving commit access to everyone who wants to submit a patch (make them commit it to the repo themselves instead of you doing that). This approach encourages them to fix other things as well and your project gets healthier thanks to a large team of developers.
edit : i already KNOW people here don't like the models. im not posting pics of them anymore on this forum until i get the skin into a "final/acceptable" form, because they are NOT yet in such a form. only regret gets to see, because he's the man in charge.
LOL. Well, at least I don't think the ones you posted earlier look crap, but that idea of not showing your work because people might tell that they don't like it is just lame. Reminds me of those closed-source mods that never get released because people would get the wrong idea. The only thing they ever manage is to post "exclusive" screenshots once in a while.
and i will re-state this : 1/2 hour to make a lego model. at least 3 to make a "real" model. if you know a way i can create geometry from scratch, uvmap it super fast, pack the uvmap, and then create a texture in half an hour, please tell me, and i will do that instead. but i'm 99% sure that its impossible any other way.
This is pretty much countered by you saying that you will be doing similar post-processing for the lego models.

By box modeling you should be able to create realistic tank bodies very easily and you get UV maps for free from the box that you started with. Different units may be created by combining and slightly modifying existing parts (scaling and adjusting a few vertices for a new look), making this much faster than creating the first model.

P.S. 3dsmax is not the best modeler. Perhaps you could improve your productivity with Lightwave or even XSI? 3dsmax has the majority of the gamedev market not because of its quality but because it was the first one widely available as warez when 3d modeling became popular.
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KaiserJ
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by KaiserJ »

i apologize for my earlier tone, i realize you just want to help.

as far as polycounts, i think we'll be fine, i've examined other mods and the lag i experience with them, and i think that my models are if anything embarassingly lowpoly in comparison with many other spring mods. the impression that i have is that except on very old systems, CPU lag is much more prevalent in spring than GPU lag.

i misunderstood what you meant by glow effect, i've always thought of it as "ambient". yes, it will be made, not until the basic texture is completed however.
The CA team has managed to create a lot of models without using lego cad. Even if you cannot create all the models instantly, the project is certainly doable and it has many other nice goals besides being OTA-free. Just use old BA models as placeholders and let people gradually replace them with new content.
yes, CA has some very nice models, but have been often criticized for a lack of faction coherence in the art style. while i don't personally share the opinion with as great a conviction as some, i feel that my models will at least address the issue of everything looking as if it belongs to a complete faction.

the problem with your suggestion is that there IS no "BA-R modelling team". caldera is doing a great job of working with scripting and Mr D's models, but as far as i know, aside from me there is nobody else in the process of creating a new set of models as an entire faction, which seems to be what is required here. CA has been going for years and still has OTA units in it, and has had multiple model contributors. do you understand?

in essence : provide me with a skilled team of modellers willing to bend to my will and creative whims, and then yes, i will do exactly what you suggest.

i think you're maybe confused with what i do to make the models out of lego.

1) load my project file, i copypaste the lego parts that i want to use
2) hide the original set
3) i position / rotate / scale / mirror the shapes until i am happy
4) cull every hidden face

unit done, very quickly. no plugins, it's just regular max

makes a bit more sense? nothing wrong with your tank model suggestion, but really, you would need to make a new skin every time to address the fact that all of the models would look very similar; i feel this method affords a greater range of variation, and possibly less work as well because i'm making only a model, not a model AND a texture

the reason im not posting them here is i only really need input from a) the people making the game b) the people who are better artists / modellers / designers than me c) somebody willing to offer constructive criticism that i can use.

i don't know how i could possibly be any more clear about this, and yet, i get idiots popping in to make suggestions without reading the whole thread / knowing whats going on / basing things on images that are months old.

if thats the extent of the positive input from the majority of the community, then why should i even both to give updates? its not as if there's a whole team of people helping who need to be informed.

you want to see what i've done? fine. msg me on the lobby, i'll be happy to show you what i've got, and maybe even take some suggestions if you can offer them. if you hunt some other threads, maybe you can discover them on your own.

if cremuss or mr D or smoth or came in here and told me that i sucked at 3d work and was completely wasting my time, then i would take it to heart. when its criticism coming from people who i am not even aware of having done any artistic work whatsoever, then they just come across as a pretentious fuck with a false sense of entitlement. (directed generally at the forum, not just this project, but every thread and every project combined.)

sure, 3ds max may not be the best modeller, but its what im used to... you dont see batman going around shooting people because its more efficient; he punches them in the face because its what he enjoys. don't have any inclination to switch software unless there is a tangible advantage; all that getting lightwave would do is waste months trying to learn it and if im lucky get back to the same level that im currently at.

edit : yes. i'm a rookie modeller, and yes, im prone to rage. this post has an unintentionally aggressive tone.. lots of people have responded positively, which is great, because i dont mean to paint such a bleak picture but getting a negative response without a how-2-fix is not a nice thing for me... i desperately want to do the best i can, and its frustrating when i hear that someone feels i've failed.
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Hobo Joe
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Hobo Joe »

Everything Tronic said. If you're going to do a cut-and-paste rush job for models, at least cut-and-paste bits of models that are fitting and built for the purpose, not lego crap.

But rule #1 of quality production is don't rush it. It's better to go painfully slow and make quality work than rush something and end up with a mediocre result. The lego models have the look of rushing and a sloppy cut-and-paste job. If you think you've made them look better than that, then post pictures and get feedback, you're not making a mod for one person to play, you're making it for everyone to play, and refusal to post pictures to avoid criticism just looks childish.

As an artist you should be able to take criticism from anyone, not just people who you deem worthy of having an opinion. Everyone has an opinion, and shutting it out just because you don't like it while hiding behind ridiculous reasons like saying they are unqualified to critique your work is just immature. The people giving their opinions are the people that would be playing what you're creating.

If you think you can make lego models that look as good as a model built from scratch, then show it, people are going to see them eventually, and if they unanimously don't like them it's better that it be shot down now than later. And if they like them, well woohoo more praise for you. There's no reason to show you're work besides a sense of entitlement and artistic superiority.


My opinion as an artist (gasp) is that the models I have seen made with lego are very lacking. They look like cut-and-paste jobs, it's not something that was made for final and good looking original models. It seems like it could be a nice tool for mockups or sketches, but not a final model. If you think your work could disprove that, please, show it, I'd honestly love to see quality and original models made with it.


tl;dr, release early, release often, and don't whine and hide your work because someone said something bad about it.
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Pxtl
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Pxtl »

Joe and Tronic have apparently volunteered to make the complete set of Arm and Core models! Thanks, Joe and Tronic! We look forward to seeing your 200-ish from-scratch models.

Seriously, CA has a lot more active development than BA and after years is still incomplete. If that's the model you're looking for, good luck.
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Hobo Joe
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Hobo Joe »

I'll make models if someone else textures and animates them.
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JohannesH
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by JohannesH »

Hobo Joe wrote:I'll make models if someone else textures and animates them.
If theyre good someone might do just that
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KaiserJ
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by KaiserJ »

Hobo Joe wrote: lego crap.
go fuck yourself
But rule #1 of quality production is don't rush it. It's better to go painfully slow and make quality work than rush something and end up with a mediocre result.
i have a job. im not willing to work painfully slow, by myself, on hundreds of models.
The lego models have the look of rushing and a sloppy cut-and-paste job. If you think you've made them look better than that, then post pictures and get feedback, you're not making a mod for one person to play, you're making it for everyone to play, and refusal to post pictures to avoid criticism just looks childish.
this is your opinion. i like the look of what i've done so far. there is absolutely no reason for me to show you ANYTHING until the entire game is done and ready to play; why do you have this feeling of entitlement to see my work?
As an artist you should be able to take criticism from anyone, not just people who you deem worthy of having an opinion.


why?
Everyone has an opinion, and shutting it out just because you don't like it while hiding behind ridiculous reasons like saying they are unqualified to critique your work is just immature. The people giving their opinions are the people that would be playing what you're creating.
this is just your opinion really, you can't control what i do. and like i've said before, i'm willing to show anyone who actually takes an interest in the project, not to every moron who walks in the door. thats like telling a girl "oh you have tits, its immature of you not to show them to everyone." its my personal work which you have no rights or jurisdiction over.
If you think you can make lego models that look as good as a model built from scratch, then show it, people are going to see them eventually, and if they unanimously don't like them it's better that it be shot down now than later. And if they like them, well woohoo more praise for you. There's no reason to show you're work besides a sense of entitlement and artistic superiority.
again, i dont have to prove shit to you. praise, although its nice, is about as worthless as mindless detraction like what you're offering; commentary without any explaination doesn't help me become a better modeller, or push me in the right direction in the slightest.
My opinion as an artist (gasp) is that the models I have seen made with lego are very lacking. They look like cut-and-paste jobs, it's not something that was made for final and good looking original models.
unjustified opinion; how can i possibly use this? artists generally have technical insight into art; balance, shape, color, that whole thing. why not offer something positive instead of cutting my work up
It seems like it could be a nice tool for mockups or sketches, but not a final model. If you think your work could disprove that, please, show it, I'd honestly love to see quality and original models made with it.
well thats just dandy
tl;dr, release early, release often, and don't whine and hide your work because someone said something bad about it.
there is no HIDING my work. tronic comes in, asks what i've been doing, i say, contact me on the lobby or forum PM.

where the fuck does this sense of self-entitlement come from?

and i'm loathe to comment on your "i'll make all of the models if someone animates and textures them" well, quite frankly, good for you. i've never seen any of your work, i've never seen you contribute anything but negativity to spring, and if your attitude is similar to the one displayed here, good luck finding anyone to work with you.

again : I OWE YOU FUCKING VAMPIRES NOTHING. if you want to see what i've been up to, ASK ME ON THE LOBBY. is it that fucking hard to understand?
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KaiserJ
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by KaiserJ »

three fucking units. total. from months ago. what did i say "i have 20 completed".

"ohhh i dont like them"

well fuck you!
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Pxtl
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Pxtl »

Kaiser, everybody loves and supports the Lego models - don't let 1 or 2 assholes who want the world handed to them on a silver platter get you down.

People shat all over MidKnight's models too - and let's face it, yours look far, far better than his early efforts did. And guess what? MidKnight's first, clumsiest models are still in CA because nobody is making replacements.

That, to me, says more than all this bitching ever does. Everybody wants perfect, custom-from-scratch-models, but none of these guys will actually make them. Saying "I'll crap out a mass of polygons from my modelling app" is ridiculous, since actually pushing the polies around is the easy/fun part.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Balanced Annihilation Reloaded

Post by Forboding Angel »

Tronic wrote:I don't think the lego modeling is going to be useful for anything but concept design. It is hard to think about turning the models into low poly versions, suitable for the game. Models should also have reflectivity textures, glow effects and other features that the lego models do not have - and that would need to be done with real modeling software anyway.
Shutup. That is the stupidest thing said in this thread. First of all, upspring genius. Secondly, reflectivity specular and glow is set via texture2.

Shut the hell up until you know anything about deving in spring.

Edit: Moreover, polycounts matter little in spring. You could easilly have all your units be 1000 polies and you won't see a performance drain.

The reason BA functions like crap in huge games is because of the fact that those are old 3do models with shittons of pieces, so spring has to run checks over and over and over again.

Emission texture? WTF are you talking about? There is no "Emission Texture".

Post processing happens once genius. That's because all legos share the same UV map and by extension, the same texture. Ya know, that thing called UV mapping which you obviously know nothing about?

Hobo, shut the hell up until you know anything of what you are talking about.
A stupid hobo wrote:I'll make models if someone else textures and animates them.
Oh so you'll be uvmapping them too? Thanks man! *flips you the bird*


Tronic and Hobo Joe, do NOT post in this thread again. Why don't you do something useful, like gee I dunno, getting a fucking clue?
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Regret
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Re: Everybody loves lego!

Post by Regret »

Hello guys, if you could kindly stop insulting eachother it would be just awsum mmk? :3
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Beherith
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Re: Everybody loves lego!

Post by Beherith »

Kaiser, disregard the comments from the clueless armchair modders. Dont take their naivety as an insult.

Hobo, please refrain from posting in this thread. PMs are welcome.
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