[old] Balanced Annihilation V6.81 - Page 16

[old] Balanced Annihilation V6.81

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MR.D
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Joined: 06 Aug 2005, 13:15

Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by MR.D »

yeah, T1 Kbots and Defense have no chance against a good Stumpy army.

There is no Kbot equivalent against Stumpy spam.

Everything T1 just get bowled over by Stumpy because of their speed and high armor, and you can't really use Janus or Leveler's against them because Janus are too slow/weak and die after their first shot in an assault usually, and Levelers will suicide themselves as the Stumpies get close to them.

Only real chance against Stumpy/Raider is to spam an equal number of your own Stumpy/Raider against them, and try to block their advance with your own units or Wrecks until you can push out.

Whats funny is that Flash still rock against Stumpy, but Gators don't do as well.
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Pxtl
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by Pxtl »

HLLTs and similar high-DPS defenses (not HLTs) can take down a terriffic number of stumpies if there's a good wreckage field or scattered DTs to break up their advance. Of course, that's a big investment in static defenses.

Really, once the game turns into "Spam Stumpies", then that means it's time to go L2.

And gators give Stumpies a hard time if you micro them into point-blank range to capitalize on their falloff, but that's labour-intensive.

Again, arced weapons in the Leveller would make them much more useful in Stumpy engagements. Considering the unit is barely mobile and short-ranged, effectiveness in stumpy swarms wouldn't be OP.
Llamadeus
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by Llamadeus »

I don't know why anyone would think that Instigators were worse than Flashes against Stumpies. Instigators have like fifty percent range on Flashes and are even more durable.

Also the laser damage drop-off exists for a reason. If you can keep your distance, keep moving at a roughly perpendicular angle a fair amount of Stumpy shots will miss. If you just blindly throw Instigators at Stumpies (and dragging a line is really not so labour-intensive) you tend to nullify your numerical advantage as lines of sight become blocked off.
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NOiZE
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by NOiZE »

Satirik wrote:http://spring.jobjol.nl/show_file.php?id=1780

BA with a "no comnapping" mod option disabling allies and ennemies comnapping (disabled by default)


*****

Its fine to use BA, but don't pretend to be the next BA, As soon as i have time i'll release the new BA.
Masure
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by Masure »

NOiZE wrote:
Satirik wrote:http://spring.jobjol.nl/show_file.php?id=1780

BA with a "no comnapping" mod option disabling allies and ennemies comnapping (disabled by default)


*****

Its fine to use BA, but don't pretend to be the next BA, As soon as i have time i'll release the new BA.
Satirik didn't intend to make the next BAs. He just wanted to add the option to yours.
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TheFatController
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by TheFatController »

My personal opinion on mod options is that they should either provide:
- Extra utilities that the Spring engine can't by default (ie no owner mode, no sharing to enemies).
- Sweeping changes that offer a different game play experience (ie the upcoming greenfields mode or something like AA's hover commanders).

Mod options that are really not obvious in the first minutes of the game and only serve to make the game 'easier' or assist certain players preferred strategies will only undermine the game and should be included in a separate mutator so as to avoid any confusion.

With that in mind I would not be happy with Satiriks commit myself, if NOiZE likes it that's up to him.
YokoZar
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by YokoZar »

Wingflier wrote:Kbots don't even come into the equation because a group of mass Levelers or Stumpies can own any number of T1 kbot unit, including Warriors. To which Core has no equivalent. But of course, kbots are completely fair (no sarcasm intended).
I just tested and it seems pretty clear that cost for cost the AK beat the stumpies hands down. They're slightly faster too - combine that with their greater numbers and the AK are very likely to get the surrounding bonus as well.

Levelers completely own the AK though
Last edited by YokoZar on 21 Feb 2009, 01:22, edited 1 time in total.
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TheFatController
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by TheFatController »

Not to mention fleas beating pretty much anything without an AOE weapon for cost :p
YokoZar
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by YokoZar »

TheFatController wrote:Not to mention fleas beating pretty much anything without an AOE weapon for cost :p
fleas will chain explode without AOE weapons. AK do chain explode, but since there are so fewer of them and they have more hp compared with fleas they tend to be much further out (and their explosions also hurt the enemy they're ramming into)
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

YokoZar wrote:I just tested and it seems pretty clear that cost for cost the AK beat the stumpies hands down. They're slightly faster too - combine that with their greater numbers and the AK are very likely to get the surrounding bonus as well.
right, sure, now you find one single ingame situation where stumpys sit isolated in range in its cost of aks.
stumpys cut through aks with any degree of micro at all, aks are totally ineffective against them with their high hp. greater numbers of ak = ruinously expensive E-cost and high buildtime
andre
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by andre »

This new modoption that should kill all units of dropped players sometimes doesn't work.. i can give you a replay if you want..
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TheFatController
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by TheFatController »

andre wrote:This new modoption that should kill all units of dropped players sometimes doesn't work.. i can give you a replay if you want..
Sure please
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TradeMark
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by TradeMark »

IMO that should kill the player units only if he doesnt have allies, ive used it in team games in accident... wasnt really good idea :D
andre
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by andre »

happend at min 42:
Attachments
20090220_182816_Mearth_v4_0.78.2.sdf
Replay
(1.96 MiB) Downloaded 102 times
YokoZar
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by YokoZar »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
YokoZar wrote:I just tested and it seems pretty clear that cost for cost the AK beat the stumpies hands down. They're slightly faster too - combine that with their greater numbers and the AK are very likely to get the surrounding bonus as well.
right, sure, now you find one single ingame situation where stumpys sit isolated in range in its cost of aks.
stumpys cut through aks with any degree of micro at all, aks are totally ineffective against them with their high hp. greater numbers of ak = ruinously expensive E-cost and high buildtime
If the stumpies are attacking, the AKs can easily intercept and swarm over them. Likewise if the AK are attacking (though they do get effecitvely blocked by large amounts of LLTs more easily than stumpy do).

The AK are faster as well, I don't see why you think it so unreasonable that they'll be able to meet the stumpies if they want. It's also relatively easier to micro the AK than the stumpy since they're faster and can surround the stumpy slightly blocking their movement.


Now, if it's a mixed stumpy/janus army, the AK are going to be in trouble, but that's totally fine and accepted since the Janus/Leveler are the AK counter unit.
jellyman
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by jellyman »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
also, I still think the high e-cost of ak/peewee in respect to their M cost is biggest weakness of kbots; you cant use them the same way you can use flash/gator simply because spamming them early at the same pace (m/tick) as another player spams flash requires 250% more energy- you cannot match the vehicle players spam without a far more developed economy, and by that stage the low hp of these units means they are scaled out of use
(within context of a typical dsd 5 vs 5 style game)

Totally disagree. In practical play I find if I start kbots I can have 10 or more aks out easily before most other players have maybe 3 flash. Spamming aks with a commander guarding factory first up requires 5 solar. So does spamming flash with com guarding initial factory. Vehicles factorys and con units cost a little more as well. In a normal game where you need to fight for territory against competent opposition, I find you can maybe build 20 aks/peewees straight up for raiding and then are required to switch to mostly rockos/storms for bulk of firepower. Usually mixed with fleas or aks for line of site support.

If I don't need to fight for my territory (eg starting back rank), and have an aggressive tank ally, I might spam aks/peewees for much longer, using them as a support unit for this players tanks. Following a tank squad into attack usually allows you to get enough of these swarmers into range of worthwile targets before they get blasted by defense as the tanks absorb much of the defensive fire.

Also I've experimented with ak spam at t2, as cannon fodder/line of sight support for mortys/dominators. It seems to work ok and is a lot of fun, but it is very hard to judge whether it improves the effectiveness of the t2 long range units enough to be cost effective.
YokoZar
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by YokoZar »

jellyman wrote:
1v0ry_k1ng wrote: Also I've experimented with ak spam at t2, as cannon fodder/line of sight support for mortys/dominators. It seems to work ok and is a lot of fun, but it is very hard to judge whether it improves the effectiveness of the t2 long range units enough to be cost effective.
I too have continued AK spam throughout t2 and it's surprisingly worthwhile - makes a great spotter unit for sumos, and they have a real tendency to harass the enemy forcing him to deploy his units in non ideal places to counter them (giving the sumo time to advance).

Interestingly, if you wait just a bit during a main tank assault to send in the AK, they can really do a lot of damage. Even only 1 or 2 of them can cause a large amount of economic damage if they slip behind the line and start pewpewing wind farms, metal makers, and the like
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

er, right, but flash could do this just better because they are fast and higher individual hp.

AK are not bad units in battle, the point is you cant mass produce them as a t1 spam unit early game like flash because producing 100m of ak costs A WHOLE LOT MORE ENERGY than 100m of flash/gator
Regret
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by Regret »

You can make 3 AK for the exact cost of a single gator + 200e
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ginekolog
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Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81

Post by ginekolog »

Err what? Wrong, regret, 3 aks are ~ 2500e, gator 1000.
AK
Health: 260
Metal/Energy cost: 34/826
Build time: 1279
M/E (on/off or flying): 0/-0 0/-0.3
M/E (always): 0/-0 0.3/-0
Cost: 48
DPS 70

gator
Health: 693
Metal/Energy cost: 118/1042
Build time: 1761
M/E (on/off or flying): 0/-0 0/-0.5
M/E (always): 0/-0 0.5/-0
Cost: 135
DPS 97

Gator are clear winner in battles.. considering all the costs and BT's. Ivory is right here.

I still think AKs are fine, they even have 500 los. Its thuds than need something to help kbots a bit.
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