A plea to team players for aggression - Page 2

A plea to team players for aggression

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Saktoth
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Post by Saktoth »

If attacking unsuccessfully is punished due to wrecks, attacking successfully is rewarded due to wrecks.

And its precisely why MM proc fails, you'll get a stronger econ by aggression and reclamation. You can just keep attacking, get back around 60% of your metal and 60% of what the enemy had, then attack again, reclaim that, attack again.

I think some players think that metal spent on aggression is metal wasted, but when you get back over half of it anyway as well as territory, security and whatever the enemy had, its more than worth it.
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lurker
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Post by lurker »

Acidd_UK wrote:
smoth wrote:how does ally reclaim DT?
Force a reclaim order on the DT directly, as if you are reclaiming one of your buildings.
Whooosh
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DemO
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Post by DemO »

Saktoth wrote:If you actually go fight, you'll learn this stuff pretty fast. Its about being a good teammember, not a good player.
This is the sort of mentality that I really dislike. There is nothing more frustrating than being part of a team where it is obvious that one or more of the members consistently underperform and effectively achieve squat for the team besides wasting a place that could be better filled by someone who can actually contribute to the overall effort.

Excuses such as "there is more to being a constructive member of a team than being skilled and helping to kill the opposition" really piss me off, because whilst this is essentially true, the "more" doesn't make up for much, and doesnt excuse the fact that if that person was replaced with someone more skilled, you can guarantee that the team would be more successful as a whole.

Being a good team member IS being a good player. Sure, you can say there are other elements of being in a team, like being able to motivate the team or always being around and available to play, or coming up with strategy that are likely to work, but when it really comes down to it, the people you want to be playing with are those who make a difference in the actual game, not before or after it.
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt »

Well a nub who listens to what better players tell them to do can often have a positive effect on the game. Is it as good as having another good player? No, but it's way better than a nub who doesn't listen and loses the game for his team as a result.
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Saktoth
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Post by Saktoth »

DemO wrote:There is nothing more frustrating than being part of a team where it is obvious that one or more of the members consistently underperform and effectively achieve squat for the team besides wasting a place that could be better filled by someone who can actually contribute to the overall effort.
This is the sort of mentality that I really dislike. The idea that you should expect everyone in a team game to be up to your skill level, especially in a community as small as this, is unrealistic. Even if you ensure you do get decent players on your team who pull their weight, the other team is just going to end up with more bad players who dont. Personally, i find noobstomps utterly boring. Its a waste of my time when the enemy has no ability to offer any opposition.

If you want to only play with and against people you know are up to your skill level, you wont find many team games. So play 1v1, which as far as i know, is what you do? Nobody to let you down then.

Me, i dont mind playing with players of inferior skill, as long as they understand their job and listen to my instructions. Buy me time and support me while i win the game. Id rather not create a community totally striated by skill, with noobs only playing noobs and pros only playing pros. They'll never become better players if you never play with them.
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SwiftSpear
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Post by SwiftSpear »

Pressure Line wrote:[9:26:03 p.m.] <[]__> not gonna play a map i never saw before

and as a side note. GROW SOME BALLS PEOPLE. not playing because you haven't played on the map before is the WORST reason ever to not play. especially when theres 4 specs in the game and one more player is needed for balanced teams.
I don't like playing maps/mods I haven't specced at least once before. And therefore, since I play spring to have fun, and don't find playing under those conditions fun, I feel entirely justified not unspeccing, even if another player is needed.

Furthermore. I could be eating ramens and unable to play anyways, so stop bawwwwing.
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drolito
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Post by drolito »

I always push ... with Hlt, Llt and Gardian ... a problem with that ? :lol:

SAVE THE TURRETS !!!





Drolito, members of the "Committee against spam units" ...
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Teutooni
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Post by Teutooni »

I agree with Saktoth. I have seen too many newbies who take a one screen area around their starting position and make pretty lines of defense towers - and far too few people who have no clue what they are doing, but still push forwards and try to kill the enemy.

This is a somewhat philosophical issue - players should be more concerned about enemies bases than their own. If you want to build nice looking bases with cute builders carrying stuff around, go play settlers or simcity or whatever. Remember: "The only acceptable outcome was the total annihilation of the other." !

Sure, the TA resource system rewards the winners of a battle, so pointless attacking will hurt your team almost twice the worth of lost units (you lose units and effectively give ~50% of them to the enemy). That's what the team is there for. With a better player giving advice when to attack and where, the newbies will likely succeed against another newbie (and blame the better player if attack fails, not the other way around :lol:).
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt »

A well thought out base is the difference (including placement of defensive jeffs) between getting raided successfully and not, but I know what you mean. ;)
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BaNa
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Post by BaNa »

I agree with Saktoth, aggression is win. In most games its also a psychological issue. Noobs are less likely to move out because they feel threatened. This is probably also why noobs prefer chokepoint maps to open ones.

I've always been surprised at how early raiding can bring out the porcmeister even in people who should know better. There is something about your early econ being raped by a sole jeffy that chars the soul and sends you off wasting time on massive def lines. I've played 2v1 games versus neebs where they didnt bother to attack after I wasted some mexes with a jeff, even though they could have punished me with their forces.
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EXit_W0und
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Post by EXit_W0und »

You lot have to remember: they don't have good tutorials, they don't have a decent single player campaign to practice on. You can't just scream 'don't suck' or even 'ffs attack - just with anything' at them and expect good results. They need to know how to prepare an attack, and before that how to prepare a minimal base that can prepare an attack. Show them how to do this and you might get better results.

This is where we should have more 2 commander, 8-16 player games - where new players and experience players alike share the responsibility of attacking, defending, resourcing, expanding. Ideally each team should have a balance of one or 2 good players with the rest being inexperienced.

In my opinion this is an excellent way to show new players how to play well since it can show players the basics of the game, and let them experiment whilst the experienced players can deal with higher level strategy.

I remember it worked well when one experienced player has sole access to the commander, and handed out smaller tasks to the new players. Such as "use these cons to build a forward base" or "take this swarm of banshees and hand banana their energy".

Each player has a smaller amount to deal with and so doesn't feel its so daunting and they'll feel like theyre contributing even if its in a small way.

If you give the newer players primarily attack missions then they'll be getting more practice at attacking. Thus they become more confident with micro, with what units work, and become more likely to try attacking in future.

Don't get me wrong it requires a little organisation to work, but its damn good fun and I miss these kind of games. :-)
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Teutooni
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Post by Teutooni »

EXit_W0und wrote:You lot have to remember: they don't have good tutorials, they don't have a decent single player campaign to practice on.
Well, that could be fixed. A more advanced tutorial, dealing with game philosophy and psychology, advanced strategy elements and such. Could be helpful to many avarage players, assuming anyone bothers to read it. :roll:

I'm relatively new, so I clearly remember the time I was an avarage player - the frustration when I was utterly beaten, not knowing what I did wrong. A thurogh, advanced tutorial could have softened the learning curve quite a bit.

Would anyone read it or would it even be useful, thoughts?
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CarRepairer
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Post by CarRepairer »

Teutooni wrote:
EXit_W0und wrote:You lot have to remember: they don't have good tutorials, they don't have a decent single player campaign to practice on.
Well, that could be fixed. A more advanced tutorial, dealing with game philosophy and psychology, advanced strategy elements and such. Could be helpful to many avarage players, assuming anyone bothers to read it. :roll:

I'm relatively new, so I clearly remember the time I was an avarage player - the frustration when I was utterly beaten, not knowing what I did wrong. A thurogh, advanced tutorial could have softened the learning curve quite a bit.

Would anyone read it or would it even be useful, thoughts?
There are "tutorials" out there, but they are short, or incomplete, or not even really tutorials (Absolute Annihilation Guide) but that's all we've got. Not to mention how hard it is to find the links to them. When I first started not too long ago, I read these several times and had to piece together the information I got from all of them into one single game in my mind and do my best with that.

It would be great if the spring website addresses this issue because the loss of newbies branches off into a whole bunch of issues that everyone cares about, like shrinking community, lack of games, lack of variety, etc.
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MightySheep
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Post by MightySheep »

pushing isn't always the best tactic for some start areas. Sometimes it is good to go eco and tech fast then come out with brawlers before anyone even has tech 2. or nukerush ftw. It depends on wether the front can hold or not without the porcer.
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

Sadly, many people who choose to porc are simply not good at porcing and econ whoring.
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LordMatt
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Post by LordMatt »

Teutooni wrote: Well, that could be fixed. A more advanced tutorial, dealing with game philosophy and psychology, advanced strategy elements and such. Could be helpful to many avarage players, assuming anyone bothers to read it. :roll:

I'm relatively new, so I clearly remember the time I was an avarage player - the frustration when I was utterly beaten, not knowing what I did wrong. A thurogh, advanced tutorial could have softened the learning curve quite a bit.

Would anyone read it or would it even be useful, thoughts?
Well a good single player campaign written by good players with the specific purpose of teaching how to play a skilled game would probably be best. I thought about working on something like that but now it seems I am working on the spring installer. :P
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KingRaptor
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Post by KingRaptor »

My quickstart guide already links to the Strategy and Tactics guide on the wiki, though it should be linked to directly in more places.

Of course, advanced strategy is something you learn from playing, not from reading, tbh
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KingRaptor
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Post by KingRaptor »

dbl post + back on topic

It isn't just newbies who suffer from the "I want to feel safe in my base, so lawl I porc" mentality (at least they have an excuse). Star players routinely fail miserably when it comes to understanding how the game is played, in fact often more so.

Delta Siege Dry is a good place to look for porcnoobs. I just finished a 4v4 where only one person on the other team even attempted to expand and hold the territory in the south. Not only did she get taken out after some time in an effective 3v1 situation, her allies flamed her for "sucking" a good portion of the game.

Their porc included whole DT walls, MRPCs, two Screamers, lots of Vipers, busloads of AA, and a Catalyst. They rushed an LRPC and a nuke, but they didn't bother with anti, so my ally just got a silo of his own and lobbed a few warheads their way.
Needless to say I wasted half an hour waiting for Sumos to walk to the enemy base and toying with Krow when I could've been getting that damn Paladin Shield in Final Fantasy III.
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manored
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Post by manored »

neddiedrow wrote:Sadly, many people who choose to porc are simply not good at porcing and econ whoring.
Thats me! :) I suck at front too so no problem! :)

I agree with people there noobs need to be tolerated more, sure is frustating then we lose because of noobs on team, but we have to stand it :) Our community is not big enough to make the noobs/vets separation and if we dont let noobs play it will never be...

Also, before blaming of being a noob or for the team loss, we must avaliate the situation they started upon, example: There was a game In DSD where I was called idiot because I was failing to hold front back, however the caller was on the back of the map porcing while i was strugling on front... and he wasnt even porcing well!

About the agression thing I think that its true in most cases that the enemy wont hurt you if you hurt in first, however sometimes i can be good to have one player to not take part of the early combat to maximize his econ and help the team later, but this should be planned before the start of the game for it to work...
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Kixxe
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Post by Kixxe »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVmzqJ2IBJc

Be agressive. B, E, Agressive.
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