KAIK 0.13 Unofficial (Spring 0.80.5*) - Page 4

KAIK 0.13 Unofficial (Spring 0.80.5*)

Here is where ideas can be collected for the skirmish AI in development

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Kloot
Spring Developer
Posts: 1867
Joined: 08 Oct 2006, 16:58

Post by Kloot »

It's back up on UF, thanks for the reminder.
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Smiff
Posts: 123
Joined: 03 Oct 2007, 12:54

Post by Smiff »

thanks thats a new version or just new compile?

http://www.unknown-files.net/3589/KAIK01321092007zip/

Kloot may i make a suggestion.. i think if you could make your AI defend the Commander better, that would make for better games for us.. playing XTA with Commander Ends Game, KAIK does not seem to take seriously the threat of death to his commander. (anyone else see this weakness?) imho he should be throwing just about everything at units attacking commander? well i have not been playing Spring and you're entitled to say "well don't attack the commander then!" ;)
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AF
AI Developer
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Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Post by AF »

AIs + comm ends == no fun...
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Engine Of Darkness
Posts: 87
Joined: 23 Dec 2006, 21:36

Post by Engine Of Darkness »

Found some bugs (Fun TA 0.60 on Supreme Battlefield)

KAIK vs RAI (no human interferences)
Bug (Commander Not building + creates stutter)

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/ ... een048.jpg

Commander idles for the rest of the game
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/ ... een049.jpg

Uhhhmm yeah? What about some other buildings?
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/ ... een050.jpg
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Kloot
Spring Developer
Posts: 1867
Joined: 08 Oct 2006, 16:58

Post by Kloot »

@Smiff

It's a new revision, but 99.5% identical to the
previous one. ;)

About your suggestion: algorithmically defending
AI commanders against players intent on picking
them off is generally very hard (I've considered a
few approaches, but found that the best is just to
let them stay put for most of the game). The only
real preventive measure that it takes (aside from
dgunning anything that gets too close when it can)
is to park its commander next to a factory after a
few minutes, but of course that only goes so far.


@Darkness

Thanks for those images! 048.jpg is the result of KAIK not
checking per-unit build limits, but the SVN builds now do.
050.jpg shows a situation that can sometimes arise where
the AI fails to properly tech up and starts to consume ever
more energy, and then frantically tries to match demand
by building tons of whatever L1 energy structures happen
to be available. 049.jpg however is a slight mystery, could
be that it thinks that shield generator is a factory of some
kind? I'll do some testing with FunTA, as it doesn't seem to
be playing all that well on your shots. ;)
Last edited by Kloot on 22 Mar 2008, 23:13, edited 4 times in total.
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Engine Of Darkness
Posts: 87
Joined: 23 Dec 2006, 21:36

Post by Engine Of Darkness »

You should wait with that... I have the weird feeling that most AIs bug out in Supreme Battlefield (32x32) No idea why, but after some early rushes most AIs go all quiet.

Does your ai try to make use of powerful weapons ? Maybe it tried to get enought energy to use the doomsday weapon :roll: .

I watched your ai for about 1:50 h and near the end, like nothing happened (in the end they rushed one enemy base with 2 tech 3 mechs, only to stop again and wait for nothing (maybe till they get attacked by the last enemys)

Funny thing is, I kind of experience that with every AI :roll:

I had that talk with Qman once too, it seems most AIs can do "good" in rushes, but are loosing badly in long lasting games.

I'm going to create a XTA 2v2 AI fight again on Supreme Battlefield to check out if I'm right with the assumption that some maps make the AIs behave totally "dumb".


edit: Nearly forgott, in the 40 minutes of Playtime, the Ai performed pretty well. I hope the game is crashfree now so that I can test this further.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Post by Forboding Angel »

It should be noted that in funta 60 there are ai sides created for arm and core, the regular mexes for these ai's give 18k metal per sec and the regular solar gives 1 million energy(both structures have a unit limit of 1).

Think of it in terms of the Bloodthirsty AI in OTA. The reason it was as tough as it was is because it had unlimited resources... Plus, I like a good hard fight. Think of it as an auto handicap of sorts.
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Engine Of Darkness
Posts: 87
Joined: 23 Dec 2006, 21:36

Post by Engine Of Darkness »

Depending what kind of AI Kloot aims at, it should play "good" without uuhm handicap, too. However that's only my view on things.
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YokoZar
Posts: 883
Joined: 15 Jul 2007, 22:02

Post by YokoZar »

Where can I find source code? I want to build a 64 bit .so for Linux so I can play :)
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tombom
Posts: 1933
Joined: 18 Dec 2005, 20:21

Post by tombom »

YokoZar wrote:Where can I find source code? I want to build a 64 bit .so for Linux so I can play :)
Spring SVN, which has all the other AIs too.
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Satirik
Lobby Developer
Posts: 1688
Joined: 16 Mar 2007, 18:27

Post by Satirik »

wow i said rai was the best ai but i didn't test the kai 0.13 which is AWSOME !!

before i say shit again im gonna do more test but i think we have the first real IA with kai 0.13
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Satirik
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Joined: 16 Mar 2007, 18:27

Post by Satirik »

it never makes boats, planes and radars ?
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DJ
Posts: 355
Joined: 17 Jan 2007, 13:26

Post by DJ »

as far as i know it does make planes, it doesn't make radars becuase it uses the map hack so it'd be a waste of resources and it can't swim.
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Engine Of Darkness
Posts: 87
Joined: 23 Dec 2006, 21:36

Post by Engine Of Darkness »

But radars help the units target enemy units quicker?
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Chocapic
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Oct 2005, 03:35

Post by Chocapic »

id like to comment on this ai.
i played 1v2 on CC redux and heres what i saw
very nice expansion from all of them
very wise unit management and units groups, in order to defend and attack.
very interesting dguning comm and fleeing comm when it needs to.
nice defense placement(allthough it built a depthcharger on CC redux).
it just needs more agressiveness on the start and to carry on with it, because i dont see any of em untill it reaches minute 5 or so, and later on in the game it didnt attack as much as it could having its army power in consideration.
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Argh
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Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Post by Argh »

Tested latest KAIK 0.13 build in SpringSVN, and it doesn't play PURE yet :P Since we know why... can ye maybe fix it, Kloot? I still don't have a "second side" built yet, and it seems like it should be fairly easy to fix...
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hrmph
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Joined: 12 May 2005, 20:08

Post by hrmph »

Very nice AI.. I'm glad someone has taken up the reins of KAI.
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mistahnice
Posts: 10
Joined: 02 Nov 2007, 12:49

Post by mistahnice »

This is a very good AI, but I noticed a few things playing with it on BA.

The AI doesn't build any AA structures, takes forever to get air and rarely builds AA units. This means that a simple group of five gunships can usually win by avoiding their mass of units and destroying any expansions.

Also, it seems that the AI has some sort of method of determining the enemy's defense and how many units it would need to have a chance of overcoming it, and it will only attack once it has that number of units massed up in one location. I was playing on Altored Divide and as soon as I had a wall with fatboys/gaats defending, it refused to attack and instead decided to amass units out of range of my defenses. Eventually, I noticed that I couldn't build any new units myself - queues in buildings and queues that builders had all ceased. After I used a nuke plane to destroy a massive blob of small t1 kbots, I was able to start building again, but only for about 40 seconds as the AI replaced these kbots rather quickly.

I've been able to reproduce this behavior four times now, I was wondering if it's a possibility to tell the AI not to produce those t1 kbots once a certain time has elapsed, to prevent this sort of thing from happening.

Great job on the AI - it actually kicked my ass a few times before I could figure out how to beat it!
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Seba
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Joined: 13 Nov 2007, 22:11

Post by Seba »

good AI , but human is better :D
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Kloot
Spring Developer
Posts: 1867
Joined: 08 Oct 2006, 16:58

Post by Kloot »

Of course, we don't want our games to get
too hard. ;)


@mistahnice:

KAI indeed takes the strength and size of its
own and enemy unit groups into consideration
when it wants to attack, but the estimates it
makes are conservative (to minimize losses).
This can lead to huge groups standing idle if
you have eg. two or more Annihilators lined up,
even if the AI has more than enough units to
overrun them. Decreasing the priority of level
1 stuff over time should help a bit there, the
only problem is that units don't carry a "tech
level flag" around (ie., there is no direct way
to tell where in the tree they belong). Good
suggestion though!

PS. air has been given a slight overhaul in
SVN, the next version will build planes again
and use them much more aggressively.
Last edited by Kloot on 21 Nov 2007, 15:13, edited 1 time in total.
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