Sometimes co-operation is difficult

[Jools]

Sometimes I get the feeling that engine devs are working *against* game devs and users, instead of with them. For instance, finding relevant stuff for games is as easy as trying to find the uninstall link in the ask toolbar. More often than not, a simple google search is easier than using the springrts.com site for finding stuff.

One example:

I'm trying to find the latest copy of lups. It even has a wiki page on http://springrts.com/wiki/LUPS, but that of course doesn't mention how to get it.

I do however find it on rapid, but since I want the actual code and not some fragments in various /pool folders I try to see where it gets the stuff from: apparently the repo is located at http://lups.repo.springrts.com/, but when you go there you just get redirected to http://springrts.com/wiki/Rapid, the rapid wiki page (which by the way has a lot of issues).

It would be nice if all relevant packages could be located on http://packages.springrts.com/builds/ or some similar page.

On the contrary, with a simple google search you can discover a hidden repo at https://github.com/jk3064/lups, but it looks as if it's not maintained anymore and appears abandoned.

[gajop]

Da faq is that example supposed to be?
LUPS is not part of the engine, and that wiki page was edited by non-engine devs only http://springrts.com/mediawiki/index.ph ... on=history
And even still.. do you think engine devs are solely responsible for creating documentation? ..

This thread is really It better turn constructive soon or locking...

[Jools]

What is not constructive? I outlined a problem and how I tried to resolve it. No need to make threats, that's not constructive.

[PicassoCT]

Lups is not part of the engine?

Cause its a real engine, and contains none of this glsl lua nonsense..
If somebody doesent like lups, he can still use all the available alternatives...
That are out there hiding..
Actually..

Lups is part of the engine..
And i think there is even some loose standard lups, which is the zero-k lups, as its the one that is most likely to aggregate fixes and stuff.

Maybee we can breed a 2nd lups and have them wrestle one another in the mud..

[knorke]

Fun fact: If one search for "lups" in wiki it says:

Did you mean: lupus

LUPS is listed on http://springrts.com/wiki/Gamedev:PublicRepos
/edit: okay, that page has no link to github, guess that is fail.

For "standard stuff" like Lups, chili it was discussed a few times how nice it would be if games would just include those things as submodules or similiar, instead of directly copying all the files. But it does not seem to be practical way, maybe because some changes are not hard improvements but more "matter of taste" or customizations or maybe hacks. So it is what it is, I guess.

[gajop]

The point anyway is that you cannot blame devs (especially current) for a lack of docs. They aren't the only one responsible for them. I do agree that LUPS is badly documented -> I never understood that page, but I never understood Picasso anyway.

@knorke:
jk wants to (if he hadn't done it already) put chili, lups, etc. on rapid so you can use it as a dependency. That's fine imo. Submodules are also fine if you provide upstream commits for those modules so you can edit them easier (that's what I use).
All that is better than just having it as regular files -> which is a nightmare to upgrade or contribute upstream.

[smoth]

Jools you can pull down a .sdd via command line. It is not the dev's fault you cannot operate rapid and rather than ask for help you create a thread like this


LUPs is not part of the engine. Neither was chili, why do you flip out over stuff like this!?!

[Jools]

Ok, that's something constructive despite a disappointing attitude. How is it possible to pull down a .sdd via rapid? You sure you mean .sdd and not .sdp?

[gajop]

Just read the docs http://springrts.com/wiki/Pr-downloader

[Jools]

By the way, I didn't mean to attack the devs, even if I understand it sounds that way. I don't care who is responsible, but my point is that it's often easier to find stuff from google than from the wiki menu. LUPS is just one example, there are many more ones.

For example: easiest way to find http://springrts.com/wiki/UI_commands is by googling "springrts interface commands" => first result. But shouldn't this be in linked from http://springrts.com/wiki/Keyboard or something?

Maybe someone who has influence with the moderators could add that to the wiki?

[MetalSucker]

Jools, let me tell you what my conclusion is:

Nobody really wants this to work, stop trying. Compared to most other game engines out there, spring is not used, spring games don't have a lot of players, there are not a lot of people involved, etc. It's gonna be a long time (if ever) before the spring project as a whole matures, until then take it as it is, it has potential. Writing docs takes time, somebody's time.

[knorke]

rapid to sdd:
rapid.exe thing is discontinued and not in engine download since some time.
http://springrts.com/wiki/Pr-downloader is not helpful for that because pr-downloader can not create sdd files on its own.
If one reads this issue on github https://github.com/spring/pr-downloader/issues/58 then it says

see https://github.com/spring/RapidTools MakeZip

So supposedly that works, but never tried it.

Everybody can edit wiki.

@ gajop:
Yes, I am aware of all that.
But seen realistically it only needs one or two small situations where some mod wants to change something in Lups/chili/whatever in a way that it can not/should not be merged upstream in original module thing. And then they are two versions again.

Realistically not many modders care about such things when they start out, it is just "I want to add XY", and then copying over the files is the easist way. Not the best way, but easiest.
It is natural that hobby peoplepersons act like that, nobody wants to bother with boring theorectical concepts.
Guess that is why http://springrts.com/wiki/Chili says:

Download it , and put the extracted files in LuaUi/widgets.

All that is better than just having it as regular files -> which is a nightmare to upgrade or contribute upstream.

Yes, of course. It is very pants on head.
But I guess it has little use to write a tutorial on how to include Chili as submodule or via depencies, because if someone realizes why that would be a good idea then he also already knows how to do it. ( = Preaching to the choir)
Otherwise reaction is simply "git? modules? wat? copying files is simpler?"
It is a situation one does not realize when starting out.
After a while one might realise that but then it is already too late or too uncomfortable to change or nobody really cares because it does not affect anyone. (until they copy over widget XY from some mod and suddendly it does not work)
Thb I am not very familiar with git/svn/submodule blablub either. From reading forum, not many modders really know how to do advanced things with git/svn. Most just seem to know how to submit their edits.
The C(hili) from springABC also seems to use simply copied files instead of some depency?

[Forboding Angel]

Just read the docs http://springrts.com/wiki/Pr-downloader

Hmm, I should update pr-downloader menu with the expanded functions like dumping sdp and all that.

Maybe I will at some point. It's too bad I don't know python well enough to do anything useful. Would be so useful if that menu were cross platform (although if you know the commands by memory technically the menu is semi-useless -- Although I use it myself just because on my autohost server it's faster to use it than to open a console).

[Jools]

Just read the docs http://springrts.com/wiki/Pr-downloader

I didn't see that reply but knorke already answered. Yes I did look at the rapid wiki page instead of the pr-downloader one, but the command line still has much of the same information.

Still, sdp is not the same thing as .sdd, or even like some kind of zipped file. To me it is unclear how an sdp file is going to be of any use. You suggest I should manually parse together the code from contents such as:

gziped index file with a list of all files in this archive. this is for example a game.
Format of the .sdp (index) files:
There is one entry per indexed file. These are repeated until EOF.
The format of one such entry:
1 byte real file name length
real file name
16 byte MD5 digest
4 byte CRC32
4 byte file size
The 16 bytes MD5 digest is the reference to the 32 Hex char file name
under pool, which contains the content.
filename of the .sdp is:
md5(md5(filename1) + md5(content of file1) + md5(filename2) + md5(content of file2) ...)

[luckywaldo7]

1. Why is this thread title so vague

2. Why not just "download zip" from the github page?

[Forboding Angel]

Jools, sdp is the format that rapid uses. By dumping an sdp, theoretically you would get the contents of an sdd (I haven't tried it).

[smoth]

I don't understand what is the problem jools, like in the time you spent raving in this thread you could have gone gotten git, setup the commandline and acquired all the repos.

I am unsure of the rapid to SDD thing being gone now, I still have my batch files so maybe I have the files in my dir still. I did setup my pc last night so I can dig around in my spring dir for you later. Just right now I am catching up on all my crap since I got back. Pretty much this week is happy fun catchup with stuff IRL .

Either way, I don't want you to feel that I just came in posted that and left you hanging, you are on my mind as far as trying to help you, just the thread is hard to follow now. I am inclined to say if Knorke says it is no longer an option(the sdd stuff) then that may be an issue now. So I would recommend tortoise git if you are in windows.

Or is it that you want to see the current source etc that are on rapid of different dependencies?

[abma]

@jools:

next time you should just point out your problem or what you want to do and very likely you'll get instant help.

just skip stuff like this:

Sometimes I get the feeling that engine devs are working *against* game devs and users, instead of with them

thats just wrong. this way you'll safe your and others time and get no forum warnings and solve your problems a lot faster. please accept that we (sadly) have no perfect documentation.

conclusion: source for lups is here

https://github.com/jk3064/lups

and it can be downloaded with the rapid tags found in this file:

http://lups.repo.springrts.com/versions.gz

(=lups:stable atm)

to convert .sdp to .zip use MakeZip from RapidTools:

http://springrts.com/wiki/RapidTools#MakeZip

(very likely compiles only on linux atm)


for better description of rapid, feel free to improve the rapid wiki page or for the index file http://lups.repo.springrts.com/ this script: https://github.com/spring/RapidTools/bl ... -config.sh



for better usability help of developers is needed...


also, what is your exact problem?

[Forboding Angel]

to convert .sdp to .zip use MakeZip from RapidTools:

http://springrts.com/wiki/RapidTools#MakeZip

(very likely compiles only on linux atm)

No offense, but how in the hell is that supposed to be useful/helpful to a windows user?

[Silentwings]

Afaics it won't, but windows users or anyone else can just check out lups from github.