Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

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arbolis
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Joined: 28 Jan 2010, 23:28

Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by arbolis »

Having made a map with gravity 1000, I realized that the range of some units (like core t1 kbots Thuds, arm t1 gunships, core t2 behemoths, etc.) depends on gravity.
However for any map, when you select a Thud, its range is a constant number. With gravity 1000 the range of thuds was less than the one of a flea and yet the given value for the range was still around 700 I think.

So I'm asking you guys, the given value for ranges for all units whose range is affected by gravity are valid for what gravity number?!

I mean, when you see that a behemoth has a range of over "1200" and lose a 1 vs 1 duel with a rocko whose range is around 450... you know there's a problem.

Thank you for answering my question.
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SinbadEV
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Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by SinbadEV »

I think it has to do with weather the weapon definition is set to be affected by gravity... but let's wait for a real answer.
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arbolis
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Joined: 28 Jan 2010, 23:28

Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by arbolis »

SinbadEV wrote:I think it has to do with weather the weapon definition is set to be affected by gravity... but let's wait for a real answer.
Yes some units have their range affected by gravity, but in all maps they will show the same number "1200" while in fact this number is different for any map. I'm asking the 1200 value is valid for what gravity number? Because clearly it isn't valid at all for a gravity map of 1000 (would be rather 300 range or even less).
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SirMaverick
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Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by SirMaverick »

If set, myGravity tag (WeaponDef) overrides map gravity.
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knorke
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Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by knorke »

Yes some units have their range affected by gravity, but in all maps they will show the same number "1200" while in fact this number is different for any map
bug in tooltip that it does not take into account map gravity. But then other factors affect weapon range too. Missiles with long flightime can continue way outside their set range etc, projectiles can bounce on the ground, a weapon with very low velocity would not reach max range,...
Probally not possible to calculate all this.
the range of thuds was less than the one of a flea
Flea uses laser weapon, it is not affected by gravity.
I'm asking the 1200 value is valid for what gravity number?
"default" map gravity is ~100 to 110, at least most maps use that.
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arbolis
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Joined: 28 Jan 2010, 23:28

Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by arbolis »

knorke wrote:bug in tooltip that it does not take into account map gravity. But then other factors affect weapon range too. Missiles with long flightime can continue way outside their set range etc, projectiles can bounce on the ground, a weapon with very low velocity would not reach max range,...
Probally not possible to calculate all this.
Ok it's a bug. Yes missiles can continue their way way outside their range, but the unit that fires won't fire a unit outside its range. Range should be the distance in which the unit will start to fire against another, not the reach of the weapon. This value is certainly calculable and might depend on gravity for some units (like behemoths, light gunships and thuds for example). I'm not asking to calculate the maximum distance a rocket can go but the distance at which the unit will fire against another.
Flea uses laser weapon, it is not affected by gravity.
Yes I know that and that's why it's ridiculous to see that the range of a thud is say 4 times bigger than the one of flea while in reality the flea outrange the thud.
"default" map gravity is ~100 to 110, at least most maps use that.
Nice to know, but I'd like the exact number. Then I'd like BA and other mods to say at least that the range of thud is 700 for a gravity map of 100; or directly calculate the range according to the gravity.

If you play on a map with gravity close to 0 or close to 1000 you'll see that the given range are totally false and ridiculous. This should be fixed IMO.
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Echo419
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Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by Echo419 »


Nice to know, but I'd like the exact number. Then I'd like BA and other mods to say at least that the range of thud is 700 for a gravity map of 100; or directly calculate the range according to the gravity.

If you play on a map with gravity close to 0 or close to 1000 you'll see that the given range are totally false and ridiculous. This should be fixed IMO.
As stated before: Weapon range is the range at which the unit will start firing at an enemy.

Range numbers given should always be taken as "during normal conditions". If you make a map with 1000 gravity then you should be prepared for this to happen. Just because you have a map that is one of very few outside the normal levels of a map seams a bit, well, off, that you should be ranting about how the devs should fix something that doesnt normally effect anyone not playing joke maps (im looking at you duck)

in reference to calculate range according to gravity, im not even sure how you would go about doing that. since they're static tool tips, perhaps a call to map info?

Oddly enough ive never seen this issue raised before, only when people are playing on joke maps where it doesnt really matter.

Remember: Bullets/rounds are affected by gravity (normally) Rockets are not, and nor are lasers in most games. Not sure about rockets in BA
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arbolis
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Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by arbolis »

Ok I get it. Thanks a lot. It's been the first map I made and I hated the idea of flying units hence my gravity choice. I didn't think it could affect anything else than units being throw off off the map.
Now it's on gravity 128 and works "normally". I don't think many people are aware that the given values for range are statics while in reality they depend on the map. That's why nobody talked about that previously, I guess.
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Echo419
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Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by Echo419 »

You can disable such features via lua.

Other wise you would have people still building aircraft and getting rather annoyed when they cant actually use them.
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Blackdutchie
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Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by Blackdutchie »

knorke wrote:bug in tooltip that it does not take into account map gravity. But then other factors affect weapon range too. Missiles with long flightime can continue way outside their set range etc, projectiles can bounce on the ground, a weapon with very low velocity would not reach max range,...
Probally not possible to calculate all this.
WHY IS THIS NOT A MAJOR FEATURE IN MOST MODULES?! This is awesome!
New unit: Peewee Mk2, fires bounchy plasma balls.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by Google_Frog »

The range of a unit is the maximun distance it will shoot on a flat plain. High gravity can reduce this distance for ballistic weapons. In practise weapon ranges are rarely reduced by maps as mappers want their maps played so they set their gravity values to somewhere around 100. If they've made a moon map and want to be a rebel they may do something rash like set map gravity to 80. Most games know this so will work at least up until 300 gravity and the smarter ones have set mygravity for weapons that may fail.

With Spring physics you cannot assume words like gravity mean what you think they mean. Gravity does not affect flying units.

Bouncy weapons probably aren't more of a feature for a few reasons:
  • Physics for them is a bit wacky
  • When you do force fire them they are likely to have many times more actual range than the unit says.
  • To fire them accurately at something beyond a unit's range takes a lot of fiddling with minute changes to the force attack location due to the previous 2 points
  • Units don't aim with bounce taken into account so major use of them requires a lot of micro.
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knorke
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: Range of some units in BA/tech annihilation and probably oth

Post by knorke »

Imo a good feature request that units take changed weapon ranges into account when targeting. (of course update ranges circles etc too)
Just like it already happens with range bonus from hills. (afaik units think of that since some time)
Blackdutchie wrote:
knorke wrote:projectiles can bounce on the ground
WHY IS THIS NOT A MAJOR FEATURE IN MOST MODULES?! This is awesome!
New unit: Peewee Mk2, fires bounchy plasma balls.
I made a handgrenade that bounces/lays on ground before exploding. It bounces kinda funny though (sometimes backwards) 8) (mod playable in 2012)
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