Auto radar targetting - Page 2

Auto radar targetting

Discuss the source code and development of Spring Engine in general from a technical point of view. Patches go here too.

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Is auto radar targetting a good thing?

Yes, it should stay
22
63%
No, it should be removed
13
37%
 
Total votes: 35

User avatar
WillRiker
Posts: 207
Joined: 27 Mar 2005, 04:02

Post by WillRiker »

PauloMorfeo wrote:
2- It greatly increases the value of radar jamming, especially when defending a base... Atackers become in serious disadvantage.
this is exactly why the feature needs to be kept, some units like pewees should not fire beyond there los while artillery units should
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[K.B.] Napalm Cobra
Posts: 1222
Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 06:15

Post by [K.B.] Napalm Cobra »

Toggles, radio boxes and flashing lights galore!
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Torrasque
Posts: 1022
Joined: 05 Oct 2004, 23:55

Post by Torrasque »

Gabba wrote:
- enemy radars should always be detected and visible as blips, if in range of one of your own radars; their blip should even be of a different color. I mean, you can't jam an active radar! This will be realistic, and will allow your first wave of planes to take out the radar first - the planes will also take advantage of radar targetting.


- jamming an area disables all radar in the jammed area as long as the jammer is active - this forces you to choose between jamming and extensive radar coverage to defend your base.
This is two very interesting idea !
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Archangel of Death
Posts: 854
Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 18:15

Post by Archangel of Death »

Well, it only jams the enemies radar in a certain radius. Suppose we made it jam your radar (and friendly radar) in the same radius. Don't you have units there though? At the very least the jammer. Radar isn't so important when you have los.
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User avatar
Gabba
Posts: 319
Joined: 08 Sep 2004, 22:59

Post by Gabba »

Archangel of Death wrote:Well, it only jams the enemies radar in a certain radius. Suppose we made it jam your radar (and friendly radar) in the same radius. Don't you have units there though? At the very least the jammer. Radar isn't so important when you have los.
I was thinking more in the lines of disabling friendly/enemy radar completely in the jammed range (new strategy? bring a jammer into enemy base to mess up his radar), but your idea is interesting. Maybe it's not enough of a disadvantage as you say, because of los.
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Dwarden
Posts: 278
Joined: 25 Feb 2005, 03:21

Post by Dwarden »

Well in case You want add Active Radars to be permanently visible (blip) ...


Then i request adding PASSIVE Radars ( You sure heard about these Czech passive radars able detect any stealth plane :))

Passive radar can be small, mobile, easy to hide, long range and can identify anything in air, on ground and sea ...
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User avatar
Storm
Posts: 443
Joined: 12 Sep 2004, 22:23

Post by Storm »

Wow, that'd be balanced.

Seriously, I think there would be a lot of strategy to make radars radar-visible all the time. You'd have to choose if you want to cover your secondary base or stay hidden for the while being. Of course they should be jam-able and the presense of a little more expensive, shorter ranged passive radars would be great,
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Redfish
Posts: 289
Joined: 27 Feb 2005, 16:12

Post by Redfish »

Even though after 4000 years of fighting I have no doubt that the AI of the units it of a very high level and little management would be needed by the commander, I still think that it's a matter of finding the balance between playing a game and watch it being played. Obviously no one would like to 'play' a game where you just have to put a marker and say: here's the enemy, go kill. And on the other hand no one likes to play a game like starcraft(they actually do?... oh) where you're constantly micromanaging a maximum of 12 units or something like that.
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zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
Posts: 7024
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08

Post by zwzsg »

Redfish wrote:I still think that it's a matter of finding the balance between playing a game and watch it being played. Obviously no one would like to 'play' a game where you just have to put a marker and say: here's the enemy, go kill.
I actually enjoy games where it plays by itself, where units are not stupid and can be left alone and do what's they're supposed to do. In a game with the scale of TA anyway, there's always something to do (save in the very first minutes when you only have the comm). I even do watch AI battle by themselves sometimes. Would be fun to be in the same team as an AI, and let the AI play against another AI while you fool around in FPS mode or write your name in DT or dig a road with ballistic weapon or anything else useless. Ok, I guess some people aren't as extreme as me, but I still think that people don't realise that having a good interface, and not-stupid units, like in Spring or TA doesn't take away from the game but in the contrary make it better, since you can battle on a larger scale.

If you explain the powerful interface and ressource system etc.. of TA to a StarCrafter, he often reacts by saying "It's a stupid game for newbie, the game play by itself without the player having to click 500 times per minutes". Now, we all know that:
- The player is still in charge of controlling his army in TA
- TA isn't very hard to start, but very difficult to master.
- Amongst top TA player, it's the micro that do all the difference. Microing cons not to ever let them inactive, microing units to fire where it hurts and avoid enemy fire (by dancing, by passing behind wreck and structure, etc...)

So, even if do try to take away all the micro of the game:
- With a hight unit limit as in TA and Spring, there's still not enough time to do all that you should do.
- At the top level of expert players, every tiny bit of micro left will have to take most of the player real time to spell the difference between defeat and victory. The more complex the action one click can achieve, the more astonishing expert games can be, since they'll still click at the maximum rate a human can achieve.

And for a "online" game, there's no such thing as "easy", since the more easy for you, the more easy for your opponent, so the less easy for you. Reductio ad absurdum. (Do you english-speaking people really have to use latin instead of saying "Proof by the absurd"). Yet at the end of the game there can be only one winner.

On a sidenote, designing the enemy unit to kill and having your own units around attack it instead of selection your own units first and telling them to attack the target is a neat idea.

Your ideas about active radar, jamming, passive radar are interesting but:
- I'd like the option to have regular radar TA system. Auto targetting is ok for me since it's something that can be achived in TA with lots of micro.
- K.I.S.S.: it's not because modern real-life electronic warfare can grow very complex that a RTS game should be the same. Make it simple, intuitive, and don't go create several kind of radar and counter-radar.
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Dwarden
Posts: 278
Joined: 25 Feb 2005, 03:21

Post by Dwarden »

Well what about this compromise ...

add Passive radar class ... where passive radar (costing more and takes longer to build) can detect active radars in way described above (even there is jammer L1) and can detect level 1 jammer but not advanced jammer (hehe) ...

but of course passive radar can't detect passive radar ...

this will add some more fun for bigger maps and base building fans :)
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User avatar
PauloMorfeo
Posts: 2004
Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53

Post by PauloMorfeo »

Redfish wrote:Even though after 4000 years of fighting ...
That sounds good. :)
Redfish wrote:... I still think that it's a matter of finding the balance between playing a game and watch it being played. ...
I think that too.

Also, i'm concerned about the generalisation that the more units the better without any concern to limits.

If we get enough units (think 5K), we may have micromanagement so reduced that we can control them all but we will either only be seeing some 200 units out of the 5000 units (beeing the remaining 4800 useless) or we will only see a mass of small and undistinguishable small dots moving back and forth.

And yet, people want more detailed and beautifull units.
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HellToupee
Posts: 59
Joined: 01 May 2005, 01:27

Post by HellToupee »

if it were possible remove all micromangement still wouldnt be like watching, all the choices still must be made by the player with reguards to map control, what to attack where to attack. Micros just all the fidly chores no one likes, manual radar targeting was one of those chores i did not like, hated babysitting my BB ild rather be doing things like looking for any BBs hes constructing.

However somethings in spring that seem to be to reduce micro arnt so great i reckon like units that healthemselfs automatically, kinda makes landing pads useless, much rather have it so that idle constructors repair nearby units even if they have no orders. Something like that.
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