Regarding Custom Radar Dots

[Warlord Zsinj]

With regard to the custom dots already implemented, on testing, I think there are two further things which would add to this excellent addition.

Please consider them individually, and do not dismiss one based on the other.

1) I think it is an absolute shame that at the very least, we don't have the option to set enemy units that are within LOS or Ghosted to display as Identified Radar Signatures when zoomed out (that is, display the appropriate symbol, not just the generic dot). This adds far better intuitive and dynamic control to the game, as it means not only can you identify your units from further out, you can identify enemy units too. It seems silly that we have the advantage of not having to zoom in to identify our own units (a fantastic inclusion), but we still have to do so for enemy units, even though they are completely within LOS.
-> Supreme Commander has it so that once a unit enters LOS, it's radar signature will remain defined even if it disappears off LOS, so long as you have radar over it. Once you lose radar, you have no longer defined that unit. That's also an excellent addition, but not as necessary as the simpler version above.

2) When you zoom out a little bit, the radar dots work quite well, seen here:



However, once you have a number of units lumped together, and zoom out a little bit, the radar dots tend to overlap and become indecipherable, seen here:



and here:



Are there any possible solutions to this problem?

Here are two suggestions:

- Lump similar units together once you zoom out into a single radar dot that displays the dot, as well as a number indicating how many of that unit type are lumped together. This would only occur at a certain level of 'zoom out', far beyond where the units first transition into radar dots.

- Lump similar units together into a big blob, which grows to indicate the amount of units that have been included together. Less precise, but more intuitive then the above suggestion.

If you were to select the blob, it would select all of them (or alternatively, target the blob, would target all of them). If you need more precise orders, just zoom in a little more to get individual radar dots, or zoom in even more to see the actual units.

Thoughts?

Again, please consider the two ideas seperately, as I feel the first one is far more important and necessary then the second.

EDIT: Images thumbnailed for ease of reading.

[NOiZE]

thumbs ftw

[Warlord Zsinj]

Images thumbnailed as requested. Sorry, I was in a rush. Now it should be easier to read.

Gnome also suggested later in IRC that units should be given a 'Z' priority, so that you can set it that if there is a blob of units, the more important ones are always displayed above (such as heavy vehicles always stack above infantry, etc).

Hawkman suggested allowing groups to be given as radar dots, so that if you give a squad the group "3", that overrides (or perhaps sits next too) the custom radar dot, meaning that you can still see your battlegroups when you are zoomed out.

[BvDorp]

mm.. both solutions seem quite.. inadequate to me.

I suggest more diversation of the units' icons.

[Gnomre]

Well, with radar blips, we've found that they need to be as geometrically shaped as possible to really be useful. At one point I tried various little icons for troops, but the icons would just run together and overlap and confuse the player more than help him. Simple shapes/designs are more helpful, but as you can see there's nothing that can be done about having dozens of units overlap. Hence the second point in zsinj's post...

[Soulless1]

yeah the first option (option of visibility of icons in LoS for mods) really needs to be implemented - in fact I'd even go as far as to say that we should leave it up to the modder whether to 'disguise' enemy radar icons at all - maybe a particular mod might want you to be able to detect certain big things and superunits etc...

(on a related note, perhaps an 'alwaysshowicon=0/1' tag is in order, for units)

[apc]

2) When you zoom out a little bit...
Here are two suggestions:

- Lump similar units together once you zoom out into a single radar dot that displays the dot, as well as a number indicating how many of that unit type are lumped together. This would only occur at a certain level of 'zoom out', far beyond where the units first transition into radar dots.

- Lump similar units together into a big blob, which grows to indicate the amount of units that have been included together. Less precise, but more intuitive then the above suggestion.

If you were to select the blob, it would select all of them (or alternatively, target the blob, would target all of them). If you need more precise orders, just zoom in a little more to get individual radar dots, or zoom in even more to see the actual units.

I'd say, you can do the synthesis of these two ideas to get something like the real command and control interface =)

The following demonstrates my thought:
The BugBunch of units is represented by a single large shape with icons (or smaller shapes) inside that indicate:
1.1) Movement capabilities of units (Naval, Air, Feet, Track, Hover, etc)
OR
1.2 Unit types (Veh, Kbot, plane, sub. etc..)
2) Firing capabilities (direct-fire, artillery, hi-traj missile (like Merl) )
3) [optional] Weapon types (projectile, missile, laser, etc)
4) [optional] Tech level (L1, L2, L3)

Also, the relative size of those smaller shapes indicates relative weight of each type in group (like "here we have mostly vehicles with some kbots and a few air support, the group is mostly direct-fire with no long-range missile and little artillery").
This should provide enough truly STRATEGIC info to the Commander on what "army" we have on this particular spot of the battlefield.

Furthermore, when HOVERING mouse over the shape, you get a detailed list of units

Code: Select all

 Army:
  * 10 Thud
  * 5 Can
  * 7 Goliath
  * 2 Merl
  * 86 AK

The problem, that is left behind the scope is the RANGE.
What should game do, when you select this "shape" and press SHIFT ?

My proposal:
1. Show the farthest possible firing range with thick line.
2. Then FILL the circle with color. The density indicates the relative number of units (or the total damage, but this issomething more CPU-intensive, I beleive) than can fire in this range.
The more unit types you have - the more concentric regions with different fill density you get.

For examle, you have 5 MERL and 15 BULLDOG in group. When selecting the "army" and pressing shift you get a circle with diameter of MERL's range filled with light red, and inside it a denser (more solid fill) part with diameter of BULLDOG range.

Possible further modifications:
1. Use different colors for different weapon types (missile, artillery, direct-file, etc). The colors should blend properly when ranges overlap.
2. If density is computed from damage - use not relative, but absolute value. This means, that group of 20 bulldogs should provide a more solid fill, than a group of 10 bulldogs. Apply this thingy to enemy's groups, and you can easily determine the outcome of the local clash =)

This thing can provide info on what "power" we have on this spot of the battlefield.

So, these two thingies raise up the strategic element of the game to some fair, I beleive, extent.

[Warlord Zsinj]

The problem with that, I think, is that things become far more complicated. And as things become more complicated, they become harder to do - and therefore much less likely to be implemented.

There is an issue with the radar blip scheme, and I think it needs to be attended too. Once we start shifting different ideas into the picture, not only does it become less likely for a dev to take a shine to it, and get it done before the next release, but it also becomes more controversial.

I think we should keep the solutions to the problems simple at the moment, so that we get a functional system happening when the radar blips are rolled out. After that we can consider adding different complexities.

With regards to range, I would say that the only time you are going to be checking ranges at that level of zoom is with things like Bertha's. In that instance, you will just select the bertha, and view the range.

The things that are likely to be 'blobbed together' are most likely going to be farmed resource buildings, and cheap level 1 units - either way you aren't really going to be needing to see their range at far levels of zoom-out.