More "BA" questions, split from The end of the maintenance branch

More "BA" questions, split from The end of the maintenance branch

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Ares
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More "BA" questions, split from The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

ivand wrote: 01 Nov 2020, 23:04I wouldn't encourage to follow BAR version of the engine.
BAR version of the engine? I thought the plan was to work together. Sounds a lot like what I said in my first post.

Not supporting 3do files would only benefit a game that already has significant time invested in remodelling.

Is there some exclusive version that only friends of BAR get to use?
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Beherith
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Beherith »

Yes, we are working together, there is no one and nothing preventing you from submitting your pull requests.

There is zero exclusivity, only the one existing in your head.

We did not say, imply or even plan any removal of 3do support (which, btw can be converted to s3o even in UpSpring with a few clicks, if you desire so).

I see that you have done a lot of work on the BA repo so far (still 0 commits).
Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

0 commits but 100% commitment. I am glad you have confirmed you are not removing 3do in future.
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ivand
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by ivand »

@Ares, the time and energy you are spending into making up some bullshit and forcing us to dispel it should better be spent on uplifting your game to 104+ engine. Otherwise I don't see why you would bother about the engine future, if you and your game chose to live in the past.
Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

This is about the future of the engine and that impacts the future of all games including BA. Obviously some would prefer not to interact outside their bubble because I was banned from Spring discord and BAR discord. Treating game devs this way doesn't paint a good picture for the future. However, I will consider your suggestion Ivand.
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Beherith
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Beherith »

Just to clarify, you were finally banned from BAR discord after spamming new users joining our discord in private messages.
Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

You are the first person to tell me this 2 months later. I didn't know BAR police private messages, but I remember Iceuicks said if people find out about BA he was afraid BAR would raise less money from donations.

Some people didn't know that BA has been banned from the official server for 3 years. But I suppose its easier to just ban the developer of the game you forked for telling them. The same way you ban BA and redirected our website to BAR.
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Beherith
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Beherith »

You are the first person to tell me this 2 months later.
You and the BAR team agreed not to advertise in each other's discords. You violated that agreement. I did not ban you from Spring Discord.
I didn't know BAR police private messages,


This is straight up harassment of players. Not to mention the usual amount of lies you were able to compress into your private message.
but I remember Iceuicks said if people find out about BA he was afraid BAR would raise less money from donations.
This is a straight up lie, as IceXuick nor anyone on BAR team ever said such a thing.
Some people didn't know that BA has been banned from the official server for 3 years. But I suppose its easier to just ban the developer of the game you forked for telling them. The same way you ban BA and redirected our website to BAR.
Once again, BA was not banned, engine 103 support was reduced.
BA is still hosted on official server with engine 104 with full support.

You are intentionally holding BA hostage on your own server by clinging to old engine, as well as refusing to put in any work to solve any update issues you may have in order to perpetuate your delusional victimhood. But I suppose that is easier than game development.

I did not redirect any website to BAR.

If anyone still has any doubt about my intentions, or actions, or has questions about historical things, please open a new thread for it.
Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

You and the BAR team agreed not to advertise in each other's discords.

False, PTAQ has been pming BA players for years and we never had an issue with that. He is also admin and has private access to many channels that even regular BA admins don't have.
This is straight up harassment of players. Not to mention the usual amount of lies you were able to compress into your private message.

I sent private messages to former BA players. When I explained what BAR had done they were outraged.
Last edited by Ares on 02 Dec 2020, 14:47, edited 5 times in total.
Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

This is a straight up lie, as IceXuick nor anyone on BAR team ever said such a thing.

False, IceXuick can speak for himself. That was his justification for refusing to host BAR on the official server.
Once again, BA was not banned, engine 103 support was reduced.
Reduced support is a nice way of saying banned. You are Spring Staff, the same people currently holding BA's github repo hostage and the same people who continue to enforce BA restrictions on official lobby while refusing to even use it for BAR.
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Beherith
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Beherith »

I sent private messages to former BA players. When I explained what BAR had done they were outraged.
This can be proven as a lie once again because:
A. Why would you send invite spam to players who were already BA players?
B. I literally have screencaps of you spamming people who were not former BA players.
IceXuick can speak for himself. That was his justification for refusing to host BAR on the official server.
We can host our own server, you can host your own server. What is wrong again?
You are Spring Staff, the same people currently holding BA's github repo hostage and the same people who continue to enforce BA restrictions on official lobby while refusing to even use it for BAR.
You were asked to do a few very minor things for BA's github repo, and refused to do so you could continue your crusade of perpetual victimhood. 103 engine restrictions predate resurrection of BAR by 1 year, violating the temporal causality of your argument.
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PtaQ
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by PtaQ »

Ares wrote: 02 Dec 2020, 14:41
You and the BAR team agreed not to advertise in each other's discords.
False, PTAQ has been pming BA players for years and we never had an issue with that. He is also admin and has private access to many channels that even regular BA admins don't have.
This is straight up harassment of players. Not to mention the usual amount of lies you were able to compress into your private message.

I sent private messages to former BA players. When I explained what BAR had done they were outraged.
Some facts, since I was brought up:

1) I have PMd players in the past to join for one game to test BAR months ago, when we had no players to do reliable tests. These were my friends who:
- all already knew very well about BAR
- not a chance they would be converted to playing BAR anyway, as a) the game was messy and unfinished/buggy back then, b) they prefer the good old game they know more about
- nor it was my intention to convert them, I would prefer if BA community stayed in BA, as I said many times in the past, BAR is aimed at new audience

Any of the pmd players can confirm the above, if you don't happen to find an exception to this, please stop spreading this lie, I feel disrespected being treated this way after all the promotion I did and players I brought to BA in the past.


2) No, you were not banned for pming former BA players, but newly acquired players (that joined discord the same day) and they were not outraged, they were weirded out and they reported it to us. Is that false Ares? Should I post the screenshots they have sent me?


To make things worse you did it the day after we have made an agreement to avoid conflicts and not provoke members of each-others projects.
Ares
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

From title it seems you are not here for constructive dialog, just to raise money for Iceuicks paypal. If you care about Spring so much how about sending the donations to Kloot who actually does valuable work on the engine. Instead of forking mods then banning the mod developer.
Flash
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Flash »

Ares wrote: 02 Dec 2020, 22:21 Instead of forking mods then banning the mod developer.
They forked the game they themselve developed then even gave you, one of the biggest trolls in BA history, access to BA Github, BA Website, BA Discord and still you attack them for no reason.

PtaQ wrote: 02 Dec 2020, 17:31
Any of the pmd players can confirm the above, if you don't happen to find an exception to this, please stop spreading this lie, I feel disrespected being treated this way after all the promotion I did and players I brought to BA in the past.
I confirm and im sorry for any disrespect you and other BAR Devs had to face.
Ares
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

theres a few reasons:
1 giving BA code to bluestone knowing the effect it would have
2 redirecting BA infra to BAR
3 banning BA

I suggest BAR should transfer their repo to Bluestone immediately so it's a level playing field and all donations to kloot
tritona2.png
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saturnV
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

Beherith wrote: 02 Dec 2020, 13:28Once again, BA was not banned, engine 103 support was reduced.
It makes anyone look bad who still pretends to misunderstand like that.
Many games use old engine versions or have done so in the past. However of those games BA was the only game that hosted large team games.
Were the rules effectively formulated in a way to ban BA9.46?
If yes then it was malice.
Or did just nobody think what effect the rules would have? I find that hard to believe because if you asked yourself the question: "What consequences will those rules have? Which games will be affected?" The answer is simply that the most popular gamestyle of BA9 would be banned, meaning death of BA. Literally the only change that these rules brought was banning BA9 teamgames.
Even if nobody had thought of that turnout: Players quickly pointed out what effect the rules really had - they were not listened to.

I do not care who came up with the idea. It is enough to know that you all supported it.
BA is still hosted on official server with engine 104 with full support.
On official server, there is not a single host using a stable engine release. They all use test engines. Also they use BA10 test versions. When BA10 team got their hand on the BAR models they gave up on BA and left it in this shameful state with messed-up half-finished balance, redirected website to BAR, messy git, and worst: In a state not accepted by players.
The test engines are old enough to be automatically deleted: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40040
MasterBel
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by MasterBel »

Ok, look, we know the situation's a mess. Everyone feels justified in their own stance. And if someone wants to ban someone from the server they own, for whatever stupid reason, why not? Sure, it may be bad for them. So can we stop these petty arguments, and focus on what we want. Because we literally all want the same thing but you're fighting like only one person can have it. No, we all can.

1. We all want to have a good time. Arguments are generally not a good time because other people get upset at us and fight back. So quit with the arguing.

2. We all want to be supported. So support each other, help each other out, and we'll all get there faster. This isn't a zero-sum game. If BAR adds a new feature to the engine, BA can benefit from it too. And Zero-K. And any other game that wants to.

3. We all want fancy new tech. So help build it. Help the people who are trying to build it. Stop making it hard for them already.

SaturnV, you're right but only to a certain extent with your points.

103 was not banned. Banning 103 does not ban BA. Banning 103 was supposed to move BA to Spring 104. It didn't. Because someone convinced a lot of BA's players that 104 was problematic and so they didn't move.
Engine/game developers have no compulsion to continue working on their games. They got sick of it and quit. Sure, we don't like that, but they didn't like working on it. Cry all you want but crying typically only makes people glad they left. One thing they were sick of was BA players complaining about bugs in 103 that were already fixed in 104. So they banned 103 hoping the players would help themselves.
There is no stable engine release because no one wants to. Clearly you don't want to do the work either. Maybe if you decided you want to you could help out. (This is simplified a little. Don't @ me.)

And the BA state is shameful to who? Shameful for the people who left behind? Shameful for the devs who quit because of the trouble the players were giving them for work that they weren't even paid to do? Shameful for the people who don't care enough to fix things because infrastructure and rules are such a tiny part of the problem, and fixing them is ultimately a huge waste of time?

BA10/BAR devs are not malicious. (Leave Triton quotes out of this. HE IS NOT A BA10/BAR DEV) They just want to create a great game and were sick of trolls. They didn't mess up BA, they just quit because they were treated horribly. Why would they care to put things in a nice place?

So if you want to fix things, ask how you can help. Tell us what you can do. Tell us what you think you can learn to do. There's plenty of work to be done and plenty of hands who could work on it. Stop making this just someone else's problem. Sure it's their problem, but it's your problem too. Else you wouldn't complain about it.

So don't shut up. We need your voice. Just use it to work out how you can help, and stop complaining. There are whole lists of things you could help with, so let's choose one and get you what you need to get you started.

It's time to start making things better.
Ares
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

Actually that quote is from the private BA10 dev channel that Ptaq and Triton were members of, where BAR discussions also took place. Triton was given springlobby server operator rank by admins to expand his powers in the context of BA10. He was granted the power to add and remove botflags (the ability to make hosts of his version of BA playable at will), an option which the real BA community have never had.

If its not a big deal, then how about give BA developer ownership of BA repo and unban BA. Wouldn't be very hard to do would it. Doesn't seem like a big deal, definately not worth banning a game for years over nothing.
MasterBel
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by MasterBel »

@Ares:
Stop complaining. Do what you can to make things better. Once people see you as an ally, they'll start listening to you. As long as you make yourself the enemy, they want.

Stop complaining. Do what you can to make things better.
saturnV
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

Rejection of BA10 was not because of the engine update. It was about gameplay changes. Many explained it before me but I will do it again:

Take a look how BA's descriptions on forum and wiki:

- Classic game design, maintained to please you...
- Balanced Annihilation (BA) is a mature game and new versions feature only minor balance tweaks.
- Stable gameplay: BA has matured through several years of playtesting. New versions don't drastically alter the gameplay.


BA10 did not follow that. It brought gameplay changes that did went too far. The team tried to sell it as "test versions" but what value do test versions have, if nobody listend to the feedback?
There was also no clues how long that gameplay testing was going to take, if it was ever going to end.
"Too many changes too fast." - that was the universal reaction from players.

Some people thought that BA needed these many changes to fresh up gameplay. The thing is: BA-players did not think so.
Sure, if you ask hundred BA players how to adjust balance then you will get 101 ideas. But they realised what they had in BA: stable gameplay that everybody could agree on, thus keeping the community alive.
Stability was more important for BA than trying out new balance ideas. Everyone realized that - except the BA10 team.

Maybe someone feels that the gameplay changes were not that dramatic. However such opinions usually came from people not playing BA.
Who were they making BA for? For zero-K people who never log into spring server? For themselves? For forum clowns like picassoCT?
With Ares I know: He is making BA for the BA-community.

Yes, we should ignore what Triton says because he is not on BA10 team. Players were already told to ignore what Forbording Angle or Ptaq and other people write, so it is not a new concept.

Until BA9.46 had always quickly updated to new spring versions, without needing to force it. I am sure eventually BA would have been updated but somehow nobody was around to do it.
For some reason engine developers panicked and gave BA to whoever was shouting the loudest?
It was bad luck that this team did not only do the small update but also squeezed in so many other changes and a new politic.

Sure, the server owner can just ban whatever game they please. Another option would have been to say to BA10-team:
"Your way of development does not work with BA. Please hold back with gameplay changes so we will have a spring104-BA that is accepted by players."
Now they have shown what methodes they will use to force their will on others. So shortsighted.
Spring is a game engine! The games do matter. The players do matter. Games have to be fun or players will not play them.

Also it is silly how Ares still has to deal with insults like having no idea about development or just being a troll.
Truth is that his efforts are keeping BA alive right now. Without his effort BA would have ended with those unuseable BA10-hosts tombstones.
Thanks to Ares, some BA-players are still sticking around and did not leave spring for good.
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