Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality. - Page 2

Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

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dizekat
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by dizekat »

knorke wrote:
Well I like those "honour killing" as a stark example of something evil that is not very well explained by instinct
Couldnt it be compared to male lions that kill the offspring of the female they want to copulate with? That is instict to protect the own genes.
Just that instead of the perpetrator the victim is killed maybe because the perpetrator can not be found and then it turns towards others.
offspring of that female are not that male lion's direct descendants, PLUS lions are social, in small packs of several females and a few males, and males do not kill any offspring there.

Also, they do it even when the perpetrator can be found.


Furthermore, if people are innately evil then why would society made of innately evil people make evil people nicer?
Because they band together vs a common enemy and thus are nice towards each other. Without common enemy (hostile enviroment with harsh winters and bla is a common enemy too) they turn onwards each other.
well yes i agree about harsh winters, i'd even say there may be some evolutionary component to that (i.e. total dicks could not survive very well)
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dizekat
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by dizekat »

Johannes wrote:Honor killings being just disguise for sadistic fun seems like a really long strecth... The simplest most straightforward "explanation" is just honor, morals obviously
What is just 'honor' exactly, try explain it to me in rational terms without falling back on irrational volcabulary and you are going to sound very, very, very far fetched. So far fetched that I am not going to believe you that anyone really buys into this thing to the point of killing own children for it.

Are you suggesting that invented concepts somehow invade and corrupt the minds as to make people even kill their own children?
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by SwiftSpear »

I believe people are imperfect, and that's pretty much it. There are many levels of goodness and evilness. Most people if confronted with a clear black and white scenario where they could either save or kill someone with minimal risk to them selfs either way they would save that person. Most people will do a small good if it's dumped into their lap.

There are some people however who are not satisfied with that, who go to great lengths to improve themselfs and do great acts of good in the world, and not simply because it's dumped into their lap. Some people will stomp you down if you try to impede them from improving the world.

On the opposite side of things, there are many people who are entirely selfish and will only do things they view as for their own good, yet at the same time have no desire to perpetrate heinous evils on other people, nor do they have any desire to make things worse for anyone.

And there are a few people who just want to screw everything up for everybody, and legitimately want to basically destroy the world.

There's ultimately also an issue of people who do bad things under the belief they are doing the right thing. I think in some cases it's simply a case of people rationalizing what they really want to do anyways to a belief system, more often than not there is some degree of that, but some people are legitimately deluded. I think this particular issue stems from a mindset of absolute world view, where you believe you already know everything about right and wrong and you aren't willing to really sit down and examine what you are doing, who you are hurting, and who you are really helping. A person who is willing to be really critical of even things that their most respected authorities tell them is less dangerous than someone who mindlessly follows whatever ideology they are indoctrinated into.
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knorke
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by knorke »

offspring of that female are not that male lion's direct descendants
I know, that was my point. Male lions kill the offsprings in order to distribute their own genes instead of the genes of a rival.
And maybe the honor killing is somehow rooted in similiar thinking?
Like Johannes wrote: Honor killings being just disguise for sadistic fun seems like a really long strecth
And it would not be an answer anyway, why is hurting/killing fun if you say so? ie sugar and meat taste good because the body needs that and thus it makes us eat that alot for energy while other stuff does not taste good because it could be dangerous.
Or maybe it is because some women killed themself (out of shame) and for whatever reason it developed from that? Or because in some countries women are regarded as less valuable, esp. once no longer virgin?
But I dont know, all seems kind of stupid. That such thing happen in rare cases, in affect, ok understable. (from a "researching" point of view, dont want to say that its less terrible that way)
But how it can become a tradition, no idea really.
Mass irrationality. irrationale stuff can not be explained. You do not reach a solid answer, only more "yes, but why?"
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Sleksa
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by Sleksa »

Johannes wrote:No, animals fight a lot, for mating rights and territory for example. But they will restrict to clashing their antlers against the contenders' antlers, instead of trying to stick them into each others guts.
Who's to say animal children exclusively nice to each other either, we can't fully understand their interactions.
There are several studies showing that animals(elephants and orangutans) bully eachother just like people do.

i'll have to venture deep down to the internets to find the source tho so hang on!
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TradeMark
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by TradeMark »

I didnt enjoy killing insects when i was kid, it was more like experimenting. I didnt get ego boost whe i killed them. Lol, i remember these small insects in some bushes, when you smashed them between your fingers, they made weird sharp smell that was interesting. That felt the same as smashing berries on the ground just to make the ground look funny.

Killing a caterpillar is lame. They are too cool to be smashed like some insects... I never killed anything that looked cool or that didnt annoy me.
Last edited by TradeMark on 08 Jan 2011, 12:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Gota
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by Gota »

I killed flies with chopsticks when i was kid.Just to prove i could.
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Johannes
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by Johannes »

dizekat wrote:
Johannes wrote:Honor killings being just disguise for sadistic fun seems like a really long strecth... The simplest most straightforward "explanation" is just honor, morals obviously
What is just 'honor' exactly, try explain it to me in rational terms without falling back on irrational volcabulary and you are going to sound very, very, very far fetched. So far fetched that I am not going to believe you that anyone really buys into this thing to the point of killing own children for it.

Are you suggesting that invented concepts somehow invade and corrupt the minds as to make people even kill their own children?
Yawn, explaining words? Ok whatever I'll look it up for you...
honor: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions

You might think it's irrational to have any morality, but not everyone will agree. Do you yourself not care about anything beside satisfying your carnal needs and maybe reproducing?
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dizekat
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by dizekat »

Johannes wrote:
dizekat wrote:
Johannes wrote:Honor killings being just disguise for sadistic fun seems like a really long strecth... The simplest most straightforward "explanation" is just honor, morals obviously
What is just 'honor' exactly, try explain it to me in rational terms without falling back on irrational volcabulary and you are going to sound very, very, very far fetched. So far fetched that I am not going to believe you that anyone really buys into this thing to the point of killing own children for it.

Are you suggesting that invented concepts somehow invade and corrupt the minds as to make people even kill their own children?
Yawn, explaining words? Ok whatever I'll look it up for you...
honor: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions

You might think it's irrational to have any morality, but not everyone will agree. Do you yourself not care about anything beside satisfying your carnal needs and maybe reproducing?
"honesty": so is it honest to kill own daughter after she was raped? And dishonest not to kill?
"fairness": so is it fair?
Sorry it seems really far fetched to me that this can make anyone kill their own daughter without having some sort of otherwise originated desire to do so.
"integrity": that is close, if one believes that she has to be killed and then kills, well that's integrity in one's beliefs and actions all right but it does not explain why they believe that, is it brainwashing, is it their own choice? Saying that integrity makes them do it explains absolutely nothing about the cause.
Furthermore, that smacks more of unwillingness to change your mind than of integrity.

the reason why I'm explaining it with "sadistic pleasure" is that sadism is sufficiently common (see Milgram experiment[edit, sorry, i meant Stanford Prison Experiment. A slip of the tongue], random people engaging in sadism) and pursuit of pleasure is common as well. The morals are then used as a pleasure enhancing belief and a cover story.
Last edited by dizekat on 08 Jan 2011, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
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zwzsg
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by zwzsg »

Johannes wrote:children [...] don't attack each other lethally on purpose practically ever. They might have some violent plays and power struggles but they won't act all out on it.
Only because they lack the strength or tool to do so. But I assure you the will is there.
Johannes wrote:Animals are the same too, they don't fight their own species' members full on.
Animals that live in civilised society, such as ants, do wage extermination war on other anthills.


dizekat wrote:Are you suggesting that invented concepts somehow invade and corrupt the minds as to make people even kill their own children?
Happens all the time. See also: Religion.
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dizekat
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by dizekat »

zwzsg wrote:
dizekat wrote:Are you suggesting that invented concepts somehow invade and corrupt the minds as to make people even kill their own children?
Happens all the time. See also: Religion.
Well I am atheist too, it's just that I don't really believe in the "a concept invaded my mind" as defence.
Ultimately, anyone who kills own child like this is a violent psychopath (under definition of what a violent psychopath is), and I am very sceptical of any claims made by a violent psychopath, such as it's claims that a belief made it commit violence, or a notion of honour, or "moral code". (using "it" as gender neutral word here, but also to prevent equivalent of anthropomorphizing as applied to someone drastically different from what we usually consider human). I guess that would make me a rather mild version of atheist as I do not buy into this whole "religion makes people evil" thing, but I do also believe that violent psychopaths thrive in highly religious societies and often end up in positions of power, shaping the religion to fit their needs.
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Peet
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by Peet »

I am pretty sure honour killings are not motivated by seeking sadistic pleasure.
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dizekat
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by dizekat »

Peet wrote:I am pretty sure honour killings are not motivated by seeking sadistic pleasure.
The killers feel good about what they have done, though*; is it so far fetched that this feeling can be the motive? Given absence of any other form of gain.
And given that more often than not victims are tortured. I say nothing can possibly make a person want to torture his own child to death (in private when they could just as well not torture), other than seeking of sadistic pleasure.
Last edited by dizekat on 08 Jan 2011, 19:46, edited 3 times in total.
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Gota
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by Gota »

Peet wrote:I am pretty sure honour killings are not motivated by seeking sadistic pleasure.
lolz +1

I dont understand dize...
I mean if where you lived it was considered normal to kill daughters at certian circumstanced you might do it as well.Got nothing to do with sadism.

How about all those africa tribes eating people to gain their soul etc...
Can all this be explained by just sadism?
Last edited by Gota on 08 Jan 2011, 19:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Johannes
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by Johannes »

dizekat wrote:
Johannes wrote:
dizekat wrote: What is just 'honor' exactly, try explain it to me in rational terms without falling back on irrational volcabulary and you are going to sound very, very, very far fetched. So far fetched that I am not going to believe you that anyone really buys into this thing to the point of killing own children for it.

Are you suggesting that invented concepts somehow invade and corrupt the minds as to make people even kill their own children?
Yawn, explaining words? Ok whatever I'll look it up for you...
honor: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions

You might think it's irrational to have any morality, but not everyone will agree. Do you yourself not care about anything beside satisfying your carnal needs and maybe reproducing?
"honesty": so is it honest to kill own daughter after she was raped? And dishonest not to kill?
"fairness": so is it fair?
Sorry it seems really far fetched to me that this can make anyone kill their own daughter without having some sort of otherwise originated desire to do so.
"integrity": that is close, if one believes that she has to be killed and then kills, well that's integrity in one's beliefs and actions all right but it does not explain why they believe that, is it brainwashing, is it their own choice? Saying that integrity makes them do it explains absolutely nothing about the cause.
Furthermore, that smacks more of unwillingness to change your mind than of integrity.
How is it so hard to understand different people have different set of values than you? People follow their morality/code of honor so they don't have to be ashamed of themselves. They might not like killing their daughter in itself but they do it so that they can wake up in the morning (or possibly only when going out and meeting people who also are supposed to hold these values) and not feel like a spineless scumbag who's letting their family be disgraced.

People kill themselves too to uphold their honor... How would you explain that? Or why are there vegetarians who don't dislike the taste of meat?
the reason why I'm explaining it with "sadistic pleasure" is that sadism is sufficiently common (see Milgram experiment, random people engaging in sadism) and pursuit of pleasure is common as well. The morals are then used as a pleasure enhancing belief and a cover story.
Milgram experiment is nothing about people being sadistic Oo
It's about people following orders rather than their own judgement and concience.

Actually you have shown no hard evidence people gain pleasure from acts of violence in themselves. The possible enjoyable thing in it is the thought process involved.
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Johannes
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by Johannes »

dizekat wrote:
Peet wrote:I am pretty sure honour killings are not motivated by seeking sadistic pleasure.
The killers feel good about what they have done, though*; is it so far fetched that this feeling can be the motive? Given absence of any other form of gain.
And how do you know they feel good about it? They just might feel worse if they the child live.
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dizekat
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by dizekat »

torture. rape before killing (father raping daughter paedophilia style). etc. It ain't euthanasia. Read some police reports, testimonies by the perpetrators, etc.
Last edited by dizekat on 08 Jan 2011, 19:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Gota
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by Gota »

I dont think honor killings are accompanied by raping the victim...
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dizekat
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by dizekat »

Gota wrote:I dont think honor killings are accompanied by raping the victim...
well its easy to find examples...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... amily.html
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dizekat
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Re: Psychology of mass violence/sadism and mass irrationality.

Post by dizekat »

Johannes wrote:
dizekat wrote: "honesty": so is it honest to kill own daughter after she was raped? And dishonest not to kill?
"fairness": so is it fair?
Sorry it seems really far fetched to me that this can make anyone kill their own daughter without having some sort of otherwise originated desire to do so.
"integrity": that is close, if one believes that she has to be killed and then kills, well that's integrity in one's beliefs and actions all right but it does not explain why they believe that, is it brainwashing, is it their own choice? Saying that integrity makes them do it explains absolutely nothing about the cause.
Furthermore, that smacks more of unwillingness to change your mind than of integrity.
How is it so hard to understand different people have different set of values than you? People follow their morality/code of honor so they don't have to be ashamed of themselves. They might not like killing their daughter in itself but they do it so that they can wake up in the morning (or possibly only when going out and meeting people who also are supposed to hold these values) and not feel like a spineless scumbag who's letting their family be disgraced.
ahh, you ARE beginning to get the point. They are doing it because they don't want to feel like spineless scumbags. Which is selfish if you think about it a little.
They also torture the victims... and they feel pride about what they have done (as evident from their own testimonies).
People kill themselves too to uphold their honor... How would you explain that?
Insanity and major depression are the primary causes of suicide.
Or why are there vegetarians who don't dislike the taste of meat?
is that honour though?


Actually you have shown no hard evidence people gain pleasure from acts of violence in themselves. The possible enjoyable thing in it is the thought process involved.
ohh sorry, i meant to refer to Stanford Prison experiment. Sorry for the confusion.
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