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Curious

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Raghna
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Re: Curious

Post by Raghna » 21 May 2010, 00:42

SirArtturi wrote:And you people think that it is grown up and morally noble to insult and provoke in the first place? You think that it's alright to dishonor someones faith and worldview by drawing a totally tasteless picture of someones god fucking a pig just because it will defend your right of free speech? I say that is totally childish, no matter how well the end would justify the means, which although I really doubt.
When did any of us drew someone fucking a pig?

First of all, it's not their god, it's their prophet, which happens to be a historical figure. An extremely cruel and unforgiving one, nonetheless.

Now they TAKE offence because we draw them, I did not offend anyone, I just drew a stickman and said he was Muhammad.

Yes some childish persons drew him fucking a pig, yes others drew him eating an icecream.


I could just start a religion and say everyone who pictures a car must be killed because a car is holy and drawing it is blasphemy.

Would anyone be evil and childish for drawing a car then because it would provoke me?

Someone in history called Muhammad raped, killed, etc, had a bunch of followers. He told them he was the son of god and whatnot and they believed every word of it, they wrote a book about it and indoctrinated their offspring into believing it. Now they want to kill us because we did something that guy from more than a millenium ago 'did not feel was right'.

And I'm being childish?


How about you go lick some Muslim extremists' ass somewhere else?
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord » 21 May 2010, 00:43

zwzsg wrote:
Sucky_Lord wrote:So we're allowed to mercilessly bludgeon our families to death, and as long as we believe in God and Jesus as the saviour, we're true Christians?
Actually, it goes together. By accepting Jesus as your lord and savior, you are confident that no matter how mercilessly you bludgeoned your family to death, you'll still be granted an eternity of bliss in heaven.
Damn why didn't I think of that.

This includes slaughtering millions of non-believers, I assume? Will I still be allowed in?
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 21 May 2010, 00:46

Jazcash wrote:I do believe in God.
out of interest, why? what is the foundation of your belief?
Last edited by 1v0ry_k1ng on 21 May 2010, 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
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JohannesH
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Re: Curious

Post by JohannesH » 21 May 2010, 00:47

You are a childish prick Raghna.

I didn't offend anyone, I just told Raghna he's a childish prick
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bobthedinosaur
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Re: Curious

Post by bobthedinosaur » 21 May 2010, 00:47

Any form of antinomianism pretty much guarantees a moral hypocrisy and is reflected well in the highlights of human history.
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Raghna
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Re: Curious

Post by Raghna » 21 May 2010, 00:53

JohannesH wrote:You are a childish prick Raghna.

I didn't offend anyone, I just told Raghna he's a childish prick
Ok. Fine.

I won't start sending dead threats and eventually kill you for this.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 21 May 2010, 00:57

zwzsg wrote:
Jazcash wrote:Everything in life is an opinion. Even obvious things would depend upon the structure of the human mind being able to relate to consciousness of life.
My opinion is that you're a cake.
You are entitled to that opinion and if you so like, I can behave like a cake for your pleasure.
Sucky_Lord wrote: Wow there's only 2 criteria for Christianity?

So we're allowed to mercilessly bludgeon our families to death, and as long as we believe in God and Jesus as the saviour, we're true Christians?

You have an extremely narrow-minded, twisted idea of the world around you.
As I said, if you're a true Christian you at the very least have an awareness of biblical moralities and understanding of what sin is.
I already said this but you are unable to read so I'll repeat it. You cannot be a true Christian if you don't at least try and follow the morals of the Bible.

Stop being so aggressive in your posts when you haven't the slightest clue about what you're saying. At least have some dignity and try and post without insulting me every time. Kaiser's got the idea.
momfreeek wrote:
Jazcash wrote:A true Christian is somebody who has accepted God into their life and truly believes that Jesus died to save everybody's sins. In doing this truly, you automatically try and follow the way of the Bible. There is no "true" Christian on earth who hasn't done these things.
But they don't follow EVERYTHING in the bible.. or they'd be stoning people left and right. Which is exactly where we came from.. the rules are picked and chosen not all followed blindly. Its not even clear what a lot of the rules are or what they mean. Theologists argue over these things like politicians.
Agreed. There is no man on earth that can follow everything in the Bible. What matters is that as a Christian, you must simply understand what sin is and how you commit it. Asking for forgiveness is another attribute of being a Christian.

momfreeek wrote:
Jazcash wrote:I haven't done these things, therefore I am not a Christian. However, I wish I was a Christian for many such reasons. I do believe in God.
you wish you were a christian? Do you feel too guilty to be a christian or something? Thats the whole frikkin point of christianity.. you are forgiven for your sins. The baptists will baptise you
The only reason I am not a Christian is because I am too weak to live by it's morals. I have tried but at my age, it's just too hard for me to achieve. I hope that perhaps one day I'll have the courage to truly accept Christianity into my life.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 21 May 2010, 01:00

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
Jazcash wrote:I do believe in God.
out of interest, why? what is the foundation of your belief?
There is no one foundation for my belief of God. Many things lead me to believe in him. Some physical, some historical, some physiological, some theological.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 21 May 2010, 01:06

Jazcash wrote:
1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
Jazcash wrote:I do believe in God.
out of interest, why? what is the foundation of your belief?
There is no one foundation for my belief of God. Many things lead me to believe in him. Some physical, some historical, some physiological, some theological.
elaborate?
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zwzsg
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Re: Curious

Post by zwzsg » 21 May 2010, 01:11

Sucky_Lord wrote:This includes slaughtering millions of non-believers, I assume? Will I still be allowed in?
Yes.

For exemple, you can kill 20,000 people, eat children hearts and still go to heaven, as long as you accept Jesus and repent for your sins. I am not speaking metaphorically, but about a good christian, a preacher, father Joshua (a.k.a. Milton Blahyi, a.k.a. General Butt Naked). Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7582160.stm
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Big Take
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Re: Curious

Post by Big Take » 21 May 2010, 01:12

Raghna wrote:
SirArtturi wrote:And you people think that it is grown up and morally noble to insult and provoke in the first place? You think that it's alright to dishonor someones faith and worldview by drawing a totally tasteless picture of someones god fucking a pig just because it will defend your right of free speech? I say that is totally childish, no matter how well the end would justify the means, which although I really doubt.
When did any of us drew someone fucking a pig?

First of all, it's not their god, it's their prophet, which happens to be a historical figure. An extremely cruel and unforgiving one, nonetheless.

Now they TAKE offence because we draw them, I did not offend anyone, I just drew a stickman and said he was Muhammad.

Yes some childish persons drew him fucking a pig, yes others drew him eating an icecream.


I could just start a religion and say everyone who pictures a car must be killed because a car is holy and drawing it is blasphemy.

Would anyone be evil and childish for drawing a car then because it would provoke me?

Someone in history called Muhammad raped, killed, etc, had a bunch of followers. He told them he was the son of god and whatnot and they believed every word of it, they wrote a book about it and indoctrinated their offspring into believing it. Now they want to kill us because we did something that guy from more than a millenium ago 'did not feel was right'.

And I'm being childish?


How about you go lick some Muslim extremists' ass somewhere else?
I'm being childish
______/
Image

In all seriousness, Islam isn't the problem; soul-crushing, life-destroying, family-wrecking poverty is the problem. You find me a well-to-do man with a happy family and everything in the world to lose that wants to blow himself up in a cafe and then we can discuss religion. Until then, the only patterns for terrorism I've seen are people downtrodden and disenfranchised by societies and oppressive powers, or else people with severe mental disturbances. The only solution that seems reasonable is to help lift the third world out of poverty such that their lives are pleasant and they have much more enjoyable troubles, like whether to go to the theater or the game, instead of stewing on the troubles of where their next meal is going to come from and wondering who or what they have to destroy to make the suffering end.

The people rioting in the streets over offensive cartoons? They're the people without much else left to lose aside from their religion, which they'll fight tooth and nail to keep. The Saudi oil barons and the corporate shills and their compatriots might grumble or write a nastily-worded letter to the editor, but they aren't going to go out and murder anyone. Desperate people take desperate measures.
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bobthedinosaur
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Re: Curious

Post by bobthedinosaur » 21 May 2010, 01:15

zwzsg, that is an antinomian belief. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism

However antinomian beliefs are not exclusively Christian.
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momfreeek
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Re: Curious

Post by momfreeek » 21 May 2010, 01:16

Jazcash wrote:
momfreeek wrote:But they don't follow EVERYTHING in the bible.. or they'd be stoning people left and right. Which is exactly where we came from.. the rules are picked and chosen not all followed blindly. Its not even clear what a lot of the rules are or what they mean. Theologists argue over these things like politicians.
Agreed. There is no man on earth that can follow everything in the Bible. What matters is that as a Christian, you must simply understand what sin is and how you commit it. Asking for forgiveness is another attribute of being a Christian.
Is it a sin to NOT stone adulterers?
Is it a sin to screw another man?
Is it a sin to persecute/criminalise someone else who screws another man?
Jazcash wrote:The only reason I am not a Christian is because I am too weak to live by it's morals. I have tried but at my age, it's just too hard for me to achieve. I hope that perhaps one day I'll have the courage to truly accept Christianity into my life.
If you believe in it I think you're there already. Thats all jesus asked of you isn't it?
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zwzsg
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Re: Curious

Post by zwzsg » 21 May 2010, 01:21

bobthedinosaur wrote:zwzsg, that is an antinomian belief. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism

However antinomian beliefs are not exclusively Christian.
Cool word. But that wikipedia articles actually portray it as an essentially christian belief. And my point still stands, true christian eat baby hearts.

Jazcash wrote:
zwzsg wrote:
Jazcash wrote:Everything in life is an opinion. Even obvious things would depend upon the structure of the human mind being able to relate to consciousness of life.
My opinion is that you're a cake.
You are entitled to that opinion and if you so like, I can behave like a cake for your pleasure.
NO! To be a cake, you need to be a cake and not a human. If you are a human and not in fact a cake, then you are actually a human and you don't not posses the same attributes as a cake as. Because you do not posses the same qualities as a cake, you are not a cake. No matter what I proclaim. I may feel free to justify myself, some people might even have the same belief as me can also think you're a cake. However, factually, you are not a cake even though you possess the same personality as a cake.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 21 May 2010, 01:39

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
Jazcash wrote:
1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
out of interest, why? what is the foundation of your belief?
There is no one foundation for my belief of God. Many things lead me to believe in him. Some physical, some historical, some physiological, some theological.
elaborate?
Ok. My Christian upbringing is probably the biggest factor of why I feel this way. Although, I know there's an awful lot of people out there with the same upbringing as me who feel the complete opposite.

Secondly, I'd probably go for the simple reading of the Bible. How a book so old can portray such relevant and accurate meaning is beyond me. Some of It's texts are simply beautiful in many a sense of the word. They address many issues I can relate to in every day life whilst being specific and not being too general.

Thirdly, I'll go for the simple design of life. How humans think, how life comes to be, nature, anatomy, development, cycles of being and so on. In my mind, it is more ridiculous to believe that all these things can come of complex science rather than of supreme design.

Fourthly, comes the simple theology of Thomas Aquinas that there must be an ultimate creator. Science has provided the 'Big Bang Theory' as an answer to just about any argument a creationist tries to put across. This begs the question, "What created the Big Bang?" This is what leads me to believe there must be a God as I do not believe that something can come of nothing. Although, I do not believe god created the Big Bang, I am a creationist.
Science and it's representative (Richard Dawkins :P ) have for many years stated that they are "working" on finding the ultimate reason for the Big Bang. They will never find it and I will continue to disbelieve the Big Bang and evolution until they do.

Fifthly, is other's experiences with faith. I know many people of many different backgrounds, cultures, identities and education. A lot of these people are well thought out people. There is nothing different in the structure of their mind than a typical atheist. However, these people believe in God. If so many other people, much more knowledgeable than I am, can believe in God, I would not even think of attacking their beliefs without proper reason. I have no reason for not believing in God.

Sixthly, is the teachings of Christianity and the Bible. Believing in God gives me a sense of purpose and direction in life. My morals have been shaped accordingly and my whole way of being would be worth nothing to me without the existence of God.
A lot of what the Bible says is more than true to my life. What it teaches me is much more than any simple person can teach me. The morals it gives is more than any law book will convey. Much of what I know about life comes from the Bible and reading the Bible reassures me about what I know and how I feel about other things.

Seventhly is the motions against it. In my own opinion, anybody who wishes to argue with me about my beliefs while using disrespectful language, childish approaches, inaccurate justification or simple intent to cause offence is a person not worth bothering with. An argument is not worth having unless either person can be influenced each way ... as fun as they can be, most arguments are this way.

The most common way that atheists argue against theists is with the use of simpleton's speak. Things such as "God doesn't exist because I've never seen him", "God obviously doesn't exist because science says he cannot" or "GOD DOES NOT EXIST. GET OVER IT YOU FAGGOT".

I encourage more intelligible questions. Things such as "Why is there so much suffering in the world if God exists?". My answer to this common question is this common Christian reply. Because of the devil. Any true Christian also believes in Satan and sins are a work of Satan if you ever get around to reading the first few pages of the Bible.

Then there's your typical Joe whose thoughts are affected against Christianity because of other occurrences in his life.
An awful lot of people are against Christianity, because they may have a stereotypical idea of the average Christian in their head and they don't like it. They may have always been against it, simply for the sake of it and because they've always been against it. They've never really sat down and thought to themselves why they're against it. They've just always been against it and so the idea of being for it is non-existent.

I've seen it from an atheist point of view many times. It's perfectly understandable why somebody would or would not believe in God. There is no overwhelmingly justification for both, both are valid arguments are both should be treated with respect and thought.

I could talk for hours about such things but doing so here would be pretty pointless.

There's only so much I can express here on a forum board but I shall try and do that of what I can.
Last edited by Jazcash on 21 May 2010, 01:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 21 May 2010, 01:41

momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to NOT stone adulterers?


No.
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to screw another man?
Yes.
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to persecute/criminalise someone else who screws another man?
Yes.
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Big Take
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Re: Curious

Post by Big Take » 21 May 2010, 01:45

Jazcash wrote:
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to NOT stone adulterers?


No.
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to screw another man?
Yes.
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to persecute/criminalise someone else who screws another man?
Yes.
Please quote scripture to justify each of those positions. If you cannot justify them with scripture, you're not properly following the written Word of God. Remember, you've discounted the Old Testament, so you only have the Gospels, Epistles, and Revelations to work from (well, and that one apocryphal text from right at the front, but not many people count that as Word of God material). If your justification for your positions does not involve scripture, please explain first the source of your justification and then why it is acceptable to hold that position when scripture says otherwise or is silent on the topic.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash » 21 May 2010, 01:53

Very well.
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to NOT stone adulterers?


No.

Reason: It is not a sin to not take violent action. If you had said "Is it a sin to stone adulterers?", my answer would be yes.
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to screw another man?
Yes.

Justification:

Romans 1:26-32, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Timothy 1:9-10, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

2 Peter 2:6, "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

Jude 7, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
momfreeek wrote:Is it a sin to persecute/criminalise someone else who screws another man?
Yes. It is a sin to persecute anybody for any reason. Who are we to judge? I believe that if that person deserves justice, then it would be dealt to him after their time is up.
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bobthedinosaur
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Re: Curious

Post by bobthedinosaur » 21 May 2010, 01:56

burn and bury. this thread is made of idiocy
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SirArtturi
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Re: Curious

Post by SirArtturi » 21 May 2010, 01:58

Raghna wrote: And I'm being childish?[/b]
Yes you are being childish. I don't see any difference. You are doing something intentionally to insult. It's not about how you draw it or in what sense, but rather why you do it.

Whatsoever, I see it problematic considering where goes the limit between insult, humour and moral or political agenda.

Your drawing isn't graphically insulting, but it clearly in this context implies a political message and the message contains an insult in the sense of that it is meant to provoke.
Raghna wrote:How about you go lick some Muslim extremists' ass somewhere else?
Thanks, that's very mature...
Jazcash wrote: [...]
As I said, if you're a true Christian you at the very least have an awareness of biblical moralities and understanding of what sin is.
I already said this but you are unable to read so I'll repeat it. You cannot be a true Christian if you don't at least try and follow the morals of the Bible.
[...]
Jazcash wrote: The only reason I am not a Christian is because I am too weak to live by it's morals. I have tried but at my age, it's just too hard for me to achieve. I hope that perhaps one day I'll have the courage to truly accept Christianity into my life.
That is your personal perception of christianity. However your categorization cant be used to determine christianity in general sense: In sense of social structure and classification of religious systems and believes. If we want to perceive and make conclusions about religion and religious indentities we cant use your definitions. That would be very arbitary. The basis for general categorization is ones feeling that he is a christian and you need to count in everone who feels so despite you feel he hasnt really got the main idea.
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