Its time to remove the engine restrictions - Page 5

Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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Ares
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Ares » 21 Jun 2019, 03:08

That code should be the most recent commit on the BA repo and the repo should be put in the hands of the BA community
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Aquanim
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Joined: 19 Jun 2019, 12:10

Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Aquanim » 21 Jun 2019, 03:30

Ares wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 03:08
That code should be the most recent commit on the BA repo and the repo should be put in the hands of the BA community
To clarify:

In your opinion the current PA code base would be a 'worthy successor' to BA if the name attached and the governance of the repository were different?

If that is the case then I think the BA players in this thread need to find somebody who
  • has the bare minimum of trust required from Spring admins to run a repo connected to rapid etc.
  • has the bare minimum of trust required from the "BA community" (whoever that is defined to be) to make the game acceptable
  • is willing to administer the repo
  • has the bare minimum of competence with git to administer the repo and pull changes from PA (which can probably be taught to somebody satisfying the first three points)
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Megatron
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Megatron » 21 Jun 2019, 03:53

raaar wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 02:09
As people said, Megatron is sealioning.

If the BA community wanted to just play, most would be playing on some of the BA 10 rooms. Apparently what they want is that the admins to acknowledge they were "wrong" and revert their decision.

This is not about facts, this is about perception, about saving face, about egos. That's why they keep distorting the facts, calling it a "ban", rejected the non-restricted BA versions: to teach the admins and devs a lesson.

Admins aren't perfect, but the BA community totally blew this out of proportion.
I have no ego about Spring and if read any of my posts you would know I don't care about BA9 vs BA10, I was fine with later versions of BA10. In fact i boycotted Mandos server until a week ago, I had been trying to get people to play BA10 on the official servers. In the end though, I gave up and went where the rest of the players are.

You can say I'm "sealioning" all you want, but the fact remains that still no acceptable explanation for the decision has been given, particularly in light of its outcome (massive official server user-base decline). It just sounds like you're evading the actual topic and trying to get personal with me and generalize about all BA players rather than address the profoundly negative impact this unnecessary decision has had on the official server user-base.

This thread isn't about BA9 vs BA10. This thread is about the intentions/goals/justification of the engine restrictions, and the real world repercussions of that action. The primary stated goal of the engine restrictions was to force players onto the new engine. This failed and the majority of the SpringRTS user-base left the official server. I find it shocking that the advocates of the engine restriction would stick their heads in the sand and pretend like its not a problem that most of the user-base left the official server. Do any of you actually care about retaining players? None of you seem remotely bothered that the majority of players left the official server, and its becoming a ghost town, all because of this one unnecessary decision. In fact some of you seem to be happy about it, which is truly deranged.

It seems the only ones with the egos here are the devs who either have too much pride to admit they made a mistake with this authoritarian overreach, or have too much contempt for the BA player-base to listen to what they're asking for. It wouldn't hurt anyone to remove the engine restrictions.To the contrary, leaving these restrictions in place fractures the SpringRTS community and sows discord between spring devs and spring players. The solution here is obvious.
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Aquanim
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Joined: 19 Jun 2019, 12:10

Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Aquanim » 21 Jun 2019, 04:23

Megatron wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 03:53
Do any of you actually care about retaining players?
What are you going to do when the answer to this question is "no"?
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Google_Frog
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Google_Frog » 21 Jun 2019, 04:52

You can say "still no acceptable explanation for the decision has been given" all you want, but the fact remains that no serious engagement with any of the explanations has been given, especially in light of all the posts saying that the question itself is incoherent. It just sounds like you've evading any attempt to have a useful conversation and trying to get political and smear everyone rather than address the profoundly negative impact this lack of good faith communication had on the official server user-base.
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raaar
Metal Factions Developer
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by raaar » 21 Jun 2019, 05:03

The BA community has been indifferent to other games, even to the the newer versions of their own game which aren't restricted (which is why all this rage seems unreasonable).

Ambivalent BA players are complaining about an outcome which they're partly responsible for (the player base is small enough that every player matters). What are the long term consequences of appeasing unreasonable people? Of helping them in undermining the official server.

Having a "fallback" game with a community that acts like this reduces my motivation to invite people to the spring server.

That said, personally I don't have a strong opinion on whether the restriction should be in place or not, they could revert it just to stop the whining and let people play on 103.0. It's from 2016, not that old.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Forboding Angel » 21 Jun 2019, 06:16

Literally this:
https://github.com/phoenix-annihilation ... odinfo.lua

So this:
https://github.com/phoenix-annihilation ... ion/pull/8

OMG OMG OMG I SAVED BA!!!!oneELEVENTY1OneElEvEn1!
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Forboding Angel » 21 Jun 2019, 06:19

megawack wrote:Do any of you actually care about retaining players? None of you seem remotely bothered that the majority of players left the official server, and its becoming a ghost town, all because of this one unnecessary decision. In fact some of you seem to be happy about it, which is truly deranged.
Because the majority of the ones that we see are beyond toxic, so if they leave we aren't exactly crying ourselves to sleep at night.

Edit: Sealioning! I knew there had to be a name for it.
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PtaQ
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by PtaQ » 21 Jun 2019, 15:11

You are missing one important fact, Megatron. People on Mandos server are pretty content with the outcome right now. Ares and others already said that whatever happens they are not going to come back to official lobby.

To sum up, on Mandos server people can:
- play the BA version they want
- play the engine version they want
- not fell oppressed by all the abusive lobby admins
- not feel oppressed by host admins
- not have to deal with incompetent game devs
- call people whatever they want and get away with it
- do their own admining, which so far doesn't seem actively abusive, so far so good

Lately they can even sustain several big games a day :)

This is basically a situation the core of BA's community has been rooting for since the first split. What I'm trying to say here is that it doesn't matter if you are right or wrong with your cause. Even if you can somehow (which is doubtful) convince enginedevs to revert their decision the hard truth is that you won't have players coming back. A few might come initially but this will just produce a new split and another round of hostwars.

If the situation would be different, people would be right now happily playing PA or helping/encouraging Shox to finish reverting BA10 balancewise.
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Sabutai
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Sabutai » 21 Jun 2019, 15:54

You guys seem to know pretty well what BA players want. How about you step back from that? How about you consider not knowing what they want?

For instance I want 104, shiny new effects, play on the main server etc etc. However I want the 946 balance. There is no such version. Thanks for pointing out the numerous versions that either don't run stably or are unbalanced.

Btw nice comic. I found a relevant one too:
Image
So if it looks like shit, tastes like shit then it might as well be called shit.

The devs just don't want 103 BA9.46 running on the server. For whatever reason that may be. Clearly this is not the target group of the spring developers.

It is of course unfortunate as BA and the other communities next and before it were getting us new users and devs. Probably the Total Annihilation origin is now more of a hindrance for whatever is planned.
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PtaQ
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by PtaQ » 21 Jun 2019, 16:07

I'm not claiming I know what players want, I'm telling you what some of them (who happen to be admining mandos host) have said.

If you want shiny new effects with old balance, talk with Shox, perhaps he will finish BA11 if he sees that there are people who would like to play it.
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Sabutai
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Sabutai » 21 Jun 2019, 16:14

PtaQ wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 16:07
I'm not claiming I know what players want, I'm telling you what some of them (who happen to be admining mandos host) have said.
That is exactly what you are claiming in your previous post:
PtaQ wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 15:11
People on Mandos server are pretty content with the outcome right now. Ares and others already said that whatever happens they are not going to come back to official lobby.
Which is not true.

[16:12:10] <Sabutai> ares would you prefer to return to the main server than stay here?
[16:12:27] <[AFUS]Ares> i dont have a fixed opinion
[16:12:32] <[AFUS]Ares> in current situation here is best option
[16:12:39] <[AFUS]Ares> doesnt seem like anything would happen to change that
[16:12:44] <[AFUS]Ares> theres been 0 concession or compromise
[16:12:59] <[AFUS]Ares> but im obviously open to anything
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Aquanim
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Joined: 19 Jun 2019, 12:10

Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Aquanim » 21 Jun 2019, 16:22

Sabutai wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 15:54
For instance I want 104, shiny new effects, play on the main server etc etc. However I want the 946 balance. There is no such version. Thanks for pointing out the numerous versions that either don't run stably or are unbalanced.
Can you answer this question then?
Aquanim wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 02:50
Ares wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 02:34
BA10 is not a replacement for BA9.46 and PA is not BA. None of these 3 things are interchangeable, all have unique identities. Only BA9.46 on new engine would be a worthy successor.
What specifically makes playing viewtopic.php?f=93&t=39426 on the SpringRTS server a less acceptable substitute than playing BA on Mando's server?

If a list is made perhaps it can be fixed.
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Sabutai
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Sabutai » 21 Jun 2019, 17:03

Aquanim wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 16:22
Sabutai wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 15:54
For instance I want 104, shiny new effects, play on the main server etc etc. However I want the 946 balance. There is no such version. Thanks for pointing out the numerous versions that either don't run stably or are unbalanced.
Can you answer this question then?
Aquanim wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 02:50
Ares wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 02:34
BA10 is not a replacement for BA9.46 and PA is not BA. None of these 3 things are interchangeable, all have unique identities. Only BA9.46 on new engine would be a worthy successor.
What specifically makes playing viewtopic.php?f=93&t=39426 on the SpringRTS server a less acceptable substitute than playing BA on Mando's server?

If a list is made perhaps it can be fixed.
Somehow I can't get it to work. Just now I've tried opening local battles, playing on an autohost, starting spring exe but I only see an empty map without commander and no ui.
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Aquanim
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Aquanim » 21 Jun 2019, 17:42

Sabutai wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 17:03
...
Somehow I can't get it to work. Just now I've tried opening local battles, playing on an autohost, starting spring exe but I only see an empty map without commander and no ui.
I just tried with a fresh copy of Phoenix Annihilation from the repository on engine version 104.0.1-1251-g69e556f and map DeltaSiegeDry Deluxe V3 (through running spring.exe directly) and it seemed to work. If you want to resolve this issue and get one step closer to playing 9.46 balance on the main server, I would suggest you retrieve your infolog.txt and any other useful observations and post them in this thread or the issue tracker.
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by very_bad_soldier » 21 Jun 2019, 18:03

To get one step closer to real facts and one step away from a bunch of people stating things about "the BA community":
So what exactly is the current game that is "100% BA9 balance" as Forb and others claimed?

I really want to know. If that really exists then we are getting somewhere. Feels like hunting the Yeti currently. The last thing I have heard from Shox as the official BA dev was that he failed to recreate vehicle behavior on 104 engine.
So can someone WHO ACTUALLY PLAYED IT AND KNOWS BA9 BALANCE (Forb you are out) really confirm that any of the proposed "fixed" games really recreate BA9 on 104?
I personally can live with less than 100% but you guys claimed that alot so now I want facts.
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Aquanim
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Aquanim » 21 Jun 2019, 18:15

very_bad_soldier wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 18:03
To get one step closer to real facts and one step away from a bunch of people stating things about "the BA community":
So what exactly is the current game that is "100% BA9 balance" as Forb and others claimed?

I really want to know. If that really exists then we are getting somewhere. Feels like hunting the Yeti currently. The last thing I have heard from Shox as the official BA dev was that he failed to recreate vehicle behavior on 104 engine.
So can someone WHO ACTUALLY PLAYED IT AND KNOWS BA9 BALANCE (Forb you are out) really confirm that any of the proposed "fixed" games really recreate BA9 on 104?
I personally can live with less than 100% but you guys claimed that alot so now I want facts.
https://github.com/phoenix-annihilation ... nihilation is claimed to be a "minimum effort port" of BA9 to engine 104 compatibility. I could not say whether it satisfies all of your criteria, since I know nothing much about any BA version created this decade and I don't know what your criteria are.

Can you play that PA version for yourself and determine what (if anything) needs to be changed to meet your standards?

(Also, for the sake of maintaining a vaguely polite and productive dialogue please just ignore what Forb has said.)
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by very_bad_soldier » 21 Jun 2019, 18:54

I would like to get replys from the guys who are claimining in this thread that there are drop-in replacements for BA9 readily available.

My own criteria are not that high. But I am actually afraid that there might be some people out there that have very high criterias. But that shouldn't be a problem if there really is the "100%" replacement available, right?
I am totally ready to agree with you that people should just switch if you convince me that it exsists.

Getting test games myself is a bit hard since the BA players are gone.
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PtaQ
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by PtaQ » 21 Jun 2019, 19:24

very_bad_soldier wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 18:03
So can someone WHO ACTUALLY PLAYED IT AND KNOWS BA9 BALANCE (Forb you are out) really confirm that any of the proposed "fixed" games really recreate BA9 on 104?
I personally can live with less than 100% but you guys claimed that alot so now I want facts.
I hope I qualify. Here is the most recent info about both options:

In current state in BA10 veh movement is recreated in a sense that veh speeds from A to B are the same (perfect recreation is impossible if you wanna use new pathing, as it involves rawmove). Its basically the closest you can get and for most practical purposes that is sufficient, also most ppl Ive spoken with disliked how pathing was handled before 104. There might be some trivial numerical tweaks remaining that need to be taken care of which afaik is being/is going to be done by Shox. Sea, rezzers, cbomb, cost rounding. and a lot of other stuff is reverted. There was a document somewhere that lists all the remaining changes. I will pass it to you when I menage to find it again. All of this is in a test branch currently, and afaik Shox and bluestone are waiting for Fabrice to put a stable release on some autohost for ppl to try it.

In current state of PA the balance is same as in BA9 except the veh movement, which has the same problem that BA10 experienced in the beggining due to switching to new pathing. Especially vehs will go faster now because they dont use brakes that much due to less turning during movement. This concerns vehs mostly because they accelerate for a long time before reaching full speed. PA to be closer to BA9 would have to do something similar to what BA10 has done in these https://github.com/Balanced-Annihilatio ... n/pull/133 adjacent commits. Other than that there are some non-cruicial bugs that are easy to fix.

Both versions arent perfect and they need some more time and testing. Although there is little interest in testing them as most ppl (and I dont blame them) just want to play the stable game they know as soon as they get back from work as you said.

To conclude, both options are very close to what you would like to play. None of them is a 100% true BA9 on 104, what Forbs was claiming about PA, but with a tiny bit of interest and cooperation from the community we could make one of them just that or at least a 99%. I hope I clarified it for you.
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Silentwings
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Re: Its time to remove the engine restrictions

Post by Silentwings » 21 Jun 2019, 20:02

afaik ... waiting for Fabrice to put a stable release on some autohost for ppl to try it
Not quite - there is a ba-test version with Spring 104.0.1-1208 running on all the autohosts, last commit 1 month ago, with much reverting done and no known bugs. Unless interest is shown / bugs reported to the issue tracker, I doubt there will be any further effort put in.

Assuming BAs plan is to play the 2016 edition forever, I think it is a bad idea, I don't think it will survive long-term doing that - but so be it, fwiw I would recommend becoming independent of Springs lobbies and filestores, since they will continue to change/update.
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