Promotion/Advertising for Spring - Page 5

Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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jK
Spring Developer
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Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 07:30

Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by jK »

smoth wrote:well, it looks like this year we are at a decline and it would be really good to find out why.
Blame ZK for not using 94. and so making it very complicated for linuxers to play ZK.
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knorke
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by knorke »

Why not just believe the creator of the stats about what caused the drop?

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29701
"The drop of players which appears in the graphs last night just after midnight is actually due to the separation of bots/players (yes, we have a lot of bots...)"

Smoothing/averaging of the grahps makes it look like the playercount went down over the course of a few weeks, when it really happend in one night. Because of a change what is counted is a player.
Google_Frog wrote:For example look at this one: http://planetspads.free.fr/spring/stats/graph_131.html
Are there ever 40 people waiting to play these games?
I think that graph is in percent. At least on the vertical axis of graph it says so.
So there are not 40 people players waiting to play mod X. But 40% of the players of mod X are currently waiting. (while 60% play)


The averaging makes for very useless stats:
Image
So most XTA games are played by 0,5 players? This information tells nothing.


conlusion:
1) the collected data is bad (for ex. counting bots)
2) the badly collected data is presented bad (averaging/smoothed graphs)
3) the badly collected data and badly presently is interpreted wrong (people read graphs wrong or do not know about relevant changes/events)
-------------
= 100% lolthread
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Google_Frog
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by Google_Frog »

jK wrote:
smoth wrote:well, it looks like this year we are at a decline and it would be really good to find out why.
Blame ZK for not using 94. and so making it very complicated for linuxers to play ZK.
Blame the Spring 94 for being unusable. It's jittery for most and ridiculously slow for some people. Look at the benchmarks and the poll.
Image
An active playerbase requires a stable engine otherwise we lose too many people between versions. The only thing that matters is whether most people can actually play the game in it's current state. 91.0 is pretty playable, there are bugs and pathfinding is comparatively bad but more people can use it. The official release of 94.1 was a problem because it messed up the Linux users.
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jK
Spring Developer
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by jK »

Google_Frog wrote:
jK wrote:
smoth wrote:well, it looks like this year we are at a decline and it would be really good to find out why.
Blame ZK for not using 94. and so making it very complicated for linuxers to play ZK.
Blame the Spring 94 for being unusable. It's jittery for most and ridiculously slow for some people.
Still better than making it `impossible`to play for `all` linuxers.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by Google_Frog »

Linux players have made builds, there were threads on the forums about how to build 91.0 and how to force SL to use it. Even if it was impossible look at the poll (which I edited in during your post). Few people could not run 91.0. But yes, best situation would have been to stick with 91.0 as the official version.
knorke wrote:100% lolthread
Not 100%. This link doesn't have those issues. The data there is not smooth and iirc the data is based on Zk games which were palyed with Springie. http://zero-k.info/ladders/games
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AF
AI Developer
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by AF »

It's amusing watching the existential dread of the community and a tad disheartening

Firstly, nobody plays spring, people play Ba Zk Evo etc. People who say they play spring are a product of a 1 lobby 1 site 1 forum paradigm that ruled this place from the early days, why blame them for going 1 step further? For most of our history it was mods not games that emblazoned the lobby and the file download sites, not games. Consequently these people's arguments all rest on top of a flawed assumption, but we can't blame them for getting the wrong end of the stick

Advertising wise, the way we've gone about it does not work. More of the same will not work.

This is why I'm not fond of showcases. They treat the engine as if they're a game or a movie and act as a trailer, it's a muddled up mixed up marketing message that doesn't quite make sense, and the message is wrong. You shouldn't be saying "here's spring, look at all our games", you should be saying "here's <insert game here>, its great, go play it NOW".

Engine specifically, the videos of dynamic lights, dot wars, etc, those are far more effective than spring showcases at bringing in developers, people wanting to do engine work and people wanting to build new content. Videos of people actually playing the game, not fancy cut scenes showing planes going overhead

So:
  • Springshowcases don't work, neither do posters, if they did we wouldn't be here in this thread
  • Stuff like dot wars, dev journals, WIP art makes a far bigger difference, seeing smooth iterate on his models in his thread is far more appealing and exciting an a trailer or a poster
  • some people like planetary maps, it's a marmite issue and nobody will ever agree on it
  • People who talk about playing spring are people who have been mislead because our community politics has allowed misleading terms to be thrown about, and we suffer for it, with people blocking things and saying it doesn't matter. It does, but they don't know that, all their logic is based on misleading points
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PicassoCT
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by PicassoCT »

Tl,DR;
Bring smoth or Random WIP Pictures to the frontpage?
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knorke
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by knorke »

Google_Frog wrote: Not 100%.
knorke wrote:100% lolthread
well even if one of the various stats was to be correct, most people do not know which ones. That makes even the correct one useless...It is like you were to guess someone's age and you say "You are 1,2,3,4,5,6,...100 years old." One number might be true but it is still not useful.
This link doesn't have those issues. The data there is not smooth and iirc the data is based on Zk games which were palyed with Springie. http://zero-k.info/ladders/games
It lists "unique players" but someone who plays for multiple hours will be counted the same as someone who plays for 1 minute. (or crashes during loading and does not play at all)
So this number would need a filter or something. And since "unique players" number is used to calculate the next graph ("minutes/players") this one is also skewed.

AF wrote:Firstly, nobody plays spring, people play Ba Zk Evo etc.
It seems the only people who keep repeating this thing are the ones who never actually seem to play. When was the last time you played? If you did, you will have noticed how one often sees the same players in different games.
Just because some dev only ever plays his own game does not mean other people are like this. Most players do in fact play multiple games either regulary or at least try them out. For example all the players I played Evo with were either zK or BA players.
PicassoCT wrote:Tl,DR;
Bring smoth or Random WIP Pictures to the frontpage?
In some previous thread like this it was decided that Imperial Winter should not be on front page/game pages because pretty pictures are meaningless for players if they can not download the game.
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AF
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by AF »

PicassoCT wrote:Tl,DR;
Bring smoth or Random WIP Pictures to the frontpage?
He's had the opportunity, and I've pulled in things of his in the past on to springinfo, but I don't publish, as he's specifically requested that his stuff isn't published on springinfo. IIRC he said he didnt want unfinished works publicised.

I might disagree but it's his stuff and I'm going to respect his wishes, I think other people here would agree

It seems the only people who keep repeating this thing are the ones who never actually seem to play. When was the last time you played? If you did, you will have noticed how one often sees the same players in different games.
Just because some dev only ever plays his own game does not mean other people are like this. Most players do in fact play multiple games either regularly or at least try them out. For example all the players I played Evo with were either zK or BA players.
Yet that wasn't my point, my point was the bit afterwards, I think most people these days would agree with the first sentence and it isn't an issue or controversy these days. I take issue with the strawman and the ad hominem attack. Wether I play or not doesn't make it any more or less true.

Even then, I do play, rarely I admit, and I remember people playing plenty of games rather than focusing on one, I'm not so naive as that.

I'm also fond of people not knowing who I am, as the last thing I want is "oo its AF I thought he'd died decades ago" or "Oh dear god not AF again" type responses, which is what I usually get the rare occasions I log in to my main account. When I do decide to try it all out, it's because I'm being nosey to see where things are up to.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by PicassoCT »

knorke wrote:
PicassoCT wrote:Tl,DR;
Bring smoth or Random WIP Pictures to the frontpage?
In some previous thread like this it was decided that Imperial Winter should not be on front page/game pages because pretty pictures are meaningless for players if they can not download the game.
Well, but it would show that people here are working, that stuff is done - that you just dont dev another engine for the glorified public garbage bin that is the intertubes. If people play this game.
ShowGames();
and people dev for this
ShowWIP();
theres got to be meat to it.

"If you dev for this engine, your commits wont go unnoticed. There will be ruckus, there will be howling, people shouting and cursing because your future awesome broke the present. So you need to be good, you got to deliver. This is not just another "One Room, One Guy, One Lightsource"-Demo Engine. This is a working base for over a dozen games. And if you can deliver here, you have proofen you can deliver anywhere."
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Google_Frog
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by Google_Frog »

While most people play many games I think the point is that an advertising message focusing on many games is confusing. It is much simpler to show someone one game and give them an idiot-proof installer which lets them play it.
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knorke
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by knorke »

AF wrote:I remember people playing plenty of games rather than focusing on one, I'm not so naive as that.
From your previous post I had read it different.

Videos:
The dev/wip videos are mostly to show something to existing community, otherwise they would be posted somewhere outside this forum. I dont see how one can say they are effective at drawing in people if they are never seen by them.

Maybe you are not fond of the showcase videos but appearently players like watching - and creating! - them. Some videos (or yt channels) mix various spring games, confusing maybe, but it is up to game makers to produce something better.
Imo the multiple-game-videos just reflect how players see spring...as a way to play different game. If that was not important to them they would not try to include it in their videos.
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AF
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by AF »

I don't doubt that they're liked by the community, just that a number of them are made for the purposes of advertisement, to showcase spring. Video tutorials etc would be better
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bibim
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by bibim »

knorke wrote: 1) the collected data is bad (for ex. counting bots)
2) the badly collected data is presented bad (averaging/smoothed graphs)
3) the badly collected data and badly presently is interpreted wrong (people read graphs wrong or do not know about relevant changes/events)
I disabled stats exports, it will save time for everyone.
(for your information I totally disagree with your first 2 points)
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by Forboding Angel »

knorke wrote:For example all the players I played Evo with were either zK or BA players.
Lies, all lies! No one plays Evo. Everyone knows that, pfft. :-)
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knorke
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by knorke »

bibim wrote:
knorke wrote: 1) the collected data is bad (for ex. counting bots)
2) the badly collected data is presented bad (averaging/smoothed graphs)
3) the badly collected data and badly presently is interpreted wrong (people read graphs wrong or do not know about relevant changes/events)
I disabled stats exports, it will save time for everyone.
(for your information I totally disagree with your first 2 points)
My apology if I offended you (or any else doing similiar stats) that was not the intention.
Still I think the graphs are "bad", as in have flaws, not bad as in being terrible or waste of time.
That is why I wish people would stop making panic posts like "oh look here a line went down a bit, it must the fault of new engine." So I tried to explain why that does not work, if my posts were wrong feel free to correct.
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Beherith
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by Beherith »

Absolutely nothing wrong with the graphs, bibim.
Whats wrong is how people try to reason with them.
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Silentwings
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by Silentwings »

I really liked those graphs & thought they were very useful. +1 to what behe said.
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bibim
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by bibim »

When someone asks me questions concerning something I've done (why is it done this way, could it be improved in some way, etc.), I always try to find time to answer/argue the best I can.
But when someone simply states directly it's bad/useless for wrong reasons (in my opinion) in some random post, I usually ignore it, especially when I have little free time.
I just saw knorke's post by chance (I didn't read this thread entirely), where he clearly states the graphs are bad in multiple ways, show useless stats etc.
I clearly disagree, but Knorke is a moderator, I can't really ignore what he thinks. I just disabled graph export so it will save both our time, that's all.
I'm not offended at all, I have my own opinion about these graphs and access them locally anyway when I need them.

edit: But don't get me wrong, I know it's very easy to misinterpret these graphs, and I totally understand that people drawing wrong conclusions concerning Spring engine popularity may be very irritating.
Last edited by bibim on 18 Jun 2013, 15:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Jools
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Re: Promotion/Advertising for Spring

Post by Jools »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote:).
I want my "select all units of the same type visible on screen shortcut".
I want my commander select shortcut key...
Use the z-selector widget to select one unit and draw a box to select all the units of the same type within the box. Almost the same.

https://code.google.com/p/xta-springrts ... lector.lua

Ctrl-C selects commander and zooms into it. I've personally made another widget that just selects commander when you press c (and if he's already selected goes into capture mode).

We all come from a TA background. The good thing with spring, compared to TA, is that it's very flexible to add stuff into it with lua.
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