The case of xzalion. - Page 4

The case of xzalion.

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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Hobo Joe
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Hobo Joe »

Argh wrote:
the fact that you're saying we should defend and help him is ridiculous
Where, pray, did I say that?

I didn't.

I said, basically, 'if you don't have anything nice to say, or think a newbie's an idiot, point him at Smoth's post and leave him alone'. That's all you have to do- impart information and let the idiots weed themselves out.
Argh wrote:Every time we lose an xzalion type, we have potentially lost a high-class, motivated individual, who could have contributed great things to Spring.

Yeah, for the sake of fun, for the sake of some people acting like twelve-year-olds kicking some kid for milk money, we lost our chance to ever find out whether this xzalion character, or the countless other people that this has happened to, could have been a major factor in Spring.

Who knows? Maybe this guy turned out to be an organizational genius, and he could construct giant game-design documents and work together with a team of coders and artists to produce something amazing.
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Argh
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

What part of "potentially" and "maybe" do I need to point out to you?

Moreover, what about the fact that people may arrive idiots, but eventually grow up and be useful here?

We've had a number of such cases, which I'm very proud of. You know who you are.
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KaiserJ
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by KaiserJ »

the whole reason i'm on here (besides chatting with all of you interesting folk, which is a nice fringe benefit) in the first place is to improve my modelling skills. i'm far from perfect, but thanks to people from here making positive suggestions and offering help and techniques, i feel the quality of my work has progressed from awful to middling in recent times.

i'm thankful for this, and try to show my thanks by returning the favour of a helpful tip or even a kind word to spur people along. some things i see that i dont like at all; and i just refrain from commenting. regardless of whether you like or dislike someone, or if they've done stupid shit in the past, it's against all of our best interests to merely discount things out of hand due to prejudice.

that been said, there's sort of an unwritten internet rule of "show and prove" or "pics or it didn't happen". lets face it, people are full of shit sometimes. who else has come recently? a SC based mod, met with interest, due to screens. Conflict Terra, met with interest, due to screens. i can't help but notice a pattern.

in the case of xzalion (sherlock holmes and the case of the missing xzalion has a nice ring to it) he made some pretty hefty claims as to a resume without anything to immediately back it up, so of course all of our resident holmeses and watsons went to work. if he hadn't said something like that he had been a developer on a professional level, people wouldn't be clamouring to know more about it.

for us : we are all rude sometimes, and in that particular case, some of us went a bit above and beyond what could have been just a post of a kitten facepalming.

for him : not surprised he flipped his wig and took off. if he came back tomorrow, after all of this uproarage, with something tangible to show, i'm pretty sure we'd see immediate acceptance.

for argh : next time, team with hunter for a rap song 8)

and btw happy friday all!
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Hobo Joe
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Hobo Joe »

Oh and I just wanna personally thank Argh for the 10 minutes of non-stop laughter he gave me, never change bro
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Argh
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

in the case of xzalion (sherlock holmes and the case of the missing xzalion has a nice ring to it) he made some pretty hefty claims as to a resume without anything to immediately back it up, so of course all of our resident holmeses and watsons went to work.
That's not their job, nor their business. If you actually think somebody's trying to defraud people or whatever, bring that to a Moderator.

Look, if I showed up and all I could say was, "I was lead animator on The Xenology Crisis a few years ago", it would cause the same reactions around here (OK, maybe not, it shows up pretty fast in Google these days- I guess interest in what was being done revived).

Would that justify people being dicks? I was doing complicated animations for a tiled engine to a limited palette- not trivial shit, with the tools I had.

Nobody should presume on the limited basis of some random trawling that they actually know anything, unless the project somebody's been associated was major, and you simply don't have an excuse for pretending that you know all about people like xzalion on that basis.
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KaiserJ
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by KaiserJ »

i wasn't trying to defend, just trying to explain what happened as best as i can figure... hell, i didnt google him, i didnt care lol

at the same time argh, if you posted like your example, and somebody said "oh i dont believe you", you would probably post a picture or some sort of background to make them stfu, right?
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Argh
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

Until recently, getting a screen would have been hard, in that case. Only when Baron put up a website a few years back did screens show up again.

I think the only screens I had were character sheets /animation cels in PICT format, and they got lost when I switched from Mac to PC.

See? It was real, it involved some serious skill... and you'd never have been able to find out much by demanding a bunch of screens.

OK, so since then, I've done a lot of other things, so when I say, "I've done stuff", I can back that up very solidly... but that's beside the point I'm getting at, which is that sometimes shit happens, drives crash, etc., and you just don't have a lot left, or you did something cool years ago and it's hard to find a lot now. None of that means you are an idiot. We don't all maintain backups and redundant web storage.

So, basically... one, that kind of investigation is not the job of this forum. Two, even if you do it and find stuff that makes you laugh, it's not really that informative, and is no basis for attacking people. Maybe the screen sucked, but the project was interesting. Maybe it never got all that polished. You just do not know.
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Pressure Line
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Pressure Line »

Argh wrote:There's still no justification for that behavior.

You guys wasted, what? 10-12 man-hours of Internet searches to find this guy's posts to give yourselves more ammunition?

That's nothing to be proud of. You effectively wasted more time on him than you claim he deserved in the first place.
The searches I did were actually based on the assumption that he was 'sincere, but clueless.' The conclusion I reached from the searching was "Not a troll, but not worth bothering with." So i stayed away.
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Satirik
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Satirik »

Argh wrote:when I switched from Mac to PC.
mmmh, I understand everything now
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knorke
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by knorke »

You guys wasted, what? 10-12 man-hours of Internet searches to find this guy's posts to give yourselves more ammunition?
More like 5 minutes google ;) His postings were not very informative. So people go look elsewhere. Maybe he has some screenshots or a download on his page? Nope, he does not. All you will find are "troll postings." "Even" emmanuel has lots of videos of his project on youtube!

You would not go around car workshops and claim you are building that sweet race car when you can hardly change a light bulb? Or ask if somebody has a good set of tires he can give to you for free?
And you would not ask these things on car forums either. Yet with programming / image editing / webdesign you always get threads like this. Why, I do not know.

Nobody should presume on the limited basis of some random trawling that they actually know anything, unless the project somebody's been associated was major, and you simply don't have an excuse for pretending that you know all about people like xzalion on that basis.
It was crystal clear nothing would come out of these threads. You could tell by the pixels.
Solution: do not post random trawling threads.

This was different to for example the guy who wanted to make a settlers game on spring or the one who wanted to make Total War game. Both had nothing to show but they said so and just asked if this and that was possible in spring. That shows they put some thought into it already even though they did not model/code/texture anything yet. So they got helpful replies because there were concret questions that could be answered. Sadly spring is not the best engine for hand-to-hand combat and settlers would need massive luaz.

Moderation:
I think mods are doing ok mostly.
One thing that annoys me though is that thread names like
super cool idea!
new mod started!
i have a question
please, how do you...
etc. are allowed to exist.
They should be renamed to something more meaningful.
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22887 look a bit fishy.
But not after a week but as soon as possible. Maybe keep the old name in brackets like: falling meteors with lua (was: super cool idea)
No offense to you, oksnoop2 but a bad name makes even a serious thread look fishy ;)

also insane posting frequence in this thread :shock:
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Argh
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

mmmh, I understand everything now
Of course. It's 42. Duh.

As for the "Settlers" guy, etc.- I really don't see any material difference there at all.

They're in the same category to me- clueless newbies who may or may not pan out. I guess you think they're different because they started with a feasibility question, but I really don't see any distinction there at all, nor do I think there's a different standard that should be applied. Newbies are newbies are newbies. Whether they're idiots or not, only time can tell.
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Edible
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Edible »

I would say that the guy would have got fair treatment if he had just fronted up and started with "I am a new dev, I have made a few things in game maker <Screen x> <Screen y> would anyone be interested in helping me with a project", he would have at the least been redirected to the relevant materials.

However opening your case with lies is a pretty sure route to getting shot down, and his posts were suspicious enough for people to find the lies.

However all that shit about not signing off in posts at the start was fairly unnecessary, and didnt help.
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Jazcash
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Jazcash »

Edible wrote:I would say that the guy would have got fair treatment if he had just fronted up and started with "I am a new dev, I have made a few things in game maker <Screen x> <Screen y> would anyone be interested in helping me with a project", he would have at the least been redirected to the relevant materials.

However opening your case with lies is a pretty sure route to getting shot down, and his posts were suspicious enough for people to find the lies.

However all that shit about not signing off in posts at the start was fairly unnecessary, and didnt help.
I agree.

R-TEAM.
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KDR_11k
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by KDR_11k »

As I said before, this is the most hostile community I've been to and I think a lot of that is down to moderator leniency. The tighter the iron fist of the moderators the less rule violation tends to happen. I've been to a forum where posting a poll was grounds for instant banning and there was no trolling going on there, as the stricter moderators departed more and more previously productive community members became trolls. I don't like this whole felony/misdemeanor/whatever talk, if someone misbehaves kick him out.

That said I'm not gonna go rogue and wipe out people on the forum, even though I technically have moderation rights over the forum I was only appointed for moderating the lobby and I see the forum as outside of my jurisdiction.
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Satirik
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Satirik »

KDR_11k wrote:As I said before, this is the most hostile community I've been to and I think a lot of that is down to moderator leniency. The tighter the iron fist of the moderators the less rule violation tends to happen. I've been to a forum where posting a poll was grounds for instant banning and there was no trolling going on there, as the stricter moderators departed more and more previously productive community members became trolls. I don't like this whole felony/misdemeanor/whatever talk, if someone misbehaves kick him out.

That said I'm not gonna go rogue and wipe out people on the forum, even though I technically have moderation rights over the forum I was only appointed for moderating the lobby and I see the forum as outside of my jurisdiction.
-1000

trolls are part of the internet plus there are a lot of new thread welcoming new people without a single troll ... it just depends on how the post is ...
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Jazcash
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Jazcash »

I think there should be a fine line drawn up between trolling, spamming and just casual chat.

Arguments and flame wars should be allowed, provided they have justification from both sides of the argument instead of just idiotic abuse.

Casual posts should also be allowed, regardless of how constructive they are. Simple posts like "+1", "This" or "Wow rly..." should be allowed. They may be small, but they at least give some small insight into what people do or do not like. Posts that give no knowledge at all to anybody like "tl;dr" or "coolstorybro" don't tell anybody if you do or do not like something.

I don't think the forums should be that different to the lobby. If somebody's posts are offending or getting on your nerves, instead of whining and reporting all their posts, you should simply add them to your ignore list.

Also, I believe that comments like "Wow this is shit" or "Omg you fail" made about an individual's work should be allowed if the individual allows it. I myself would prefer to see somebody's nasty comments about me work be shown rather than be blocked. Regardless of how nasty somebody's post would be about my work, it still gives me an idea of what people think of it and what I should do about it, rather than have people's comments removed and then I become mislead into thinking people don't mind my work...

That being said, there should be a certain level of respect for each other and each other's content on these forums but people shouldn't be getting banned for it, they should only have limitations added such as "Moderator approval only" or "can read this and that forum but can't post in it" etc etc...

Banning people who have even only contributed slightly is much more damaging to a forum because that person may potentially make some content but couldn't because they were banned. I give you Emmanuel. Most the trolls on this forum have contributed at least once if not many times.
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Sucky_Lord »

Jazcash wrote:Posts that give no knowledge at all to anybody like "tl;dr" or "coolstorybro" don't tell anybody if you do or do not like something.
Erm, yeah, if you search the forum you're the only person here to have used the phrase "coolstorybro"
Jazcash wrote:It doesn't so coolstorybro.
Hypocritical much?
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by very_bad_soldier »

+10 what Argh said...
Not that I think anybody cares for it, but this is how it looks to me:
I really dont see much room for a multi-page discussion if it is ok to behave like assholes :roll:. It just is not. End of story.
(Well, there might be rare exceptions where someone was an asshole himself and you have been insulted and stuff. I at least can understand to behave like shit in return then.)

But this was clearly not the case with xzalion. Still, this problem is not related to xzalion in particular, it is the same with other new forumers and it is the same with new players.
Please stop telling they all deserved to be treated like that because they made mistake X or mistake Y. This are just pathetic attempts to justify your own misbehavior.
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Jazcash
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Jazcash »

Sucky_Lord wrote:
Jazcash wrote:Posts that give no knowledge at all to anybody like "tl;dr" or "coolstorybro" don't tell anybody if you do or do not like something.
Erm, yeah, if you search the forum you're the only person here to have used the phrase "coolstorybro"
Jazcash wrote:It doesn't so coolstorybro.
Hypocritical much?
Note the justification before. It wasn't just a single word post.
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Beherith
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Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Beherith »

Jazcash wrote:Also, I believe that comments like "Wow this is shit" or "Omg you fail" made about an individual's work should be allowed if the individual allows it.
So in your opinion its ok to say things like that if its just nested in a quote block?
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