The case of xzalion. - Page 3

The case of xzalion.

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

Moderators: Moderators, Moderators

User avatar
Beherith
Moderator
Posts: 4934
Joined: 26 Oct 2007, 16:21

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Beherith »

zwzsg wrote:@Beherith: Look, if he felt personnaly attacked, all he would have to do is to reply: Yes, I made game X and Y. I would then have rushed to check those games, and would he have been credited in them, I would have effectively made a fool of. I gave him a perfect opportunity to silence me while showing the word how awesome he is, and not even looking arrogant while doing so. All that he had to do, was to be himself: A game dev talking about his games.

@Sucky_Lord & Beherith: Indeed, I shall try spending longer consider not responding at all next time.
zw, he was right about feeling attacked, the request for proof of his skills was contained in a belittling personal jab.
My problem is still not the request for proof itself, but the way it was wrapped in a neat little insult.
0 x

User avatar
1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

I dont see the problem here, the system is entirely self regulating.

idiots come in nouncing their mods on the forums and burn out instantly? they were not going to be modders anyway.

reception from the forums has no relation to the game itself, which I would expect someone nouncing their mods to have played extensively and understand to a good degree before they start.

people that this come in here with a copy pasta response, thread spam and some serious mental damage and without even having played the game first? no loss.

This community has (inappropriately)heroicised trolls since smug goat; if you really tried to remove the trolls a great deal of the forum population would cease to exist.

and I did listen to Arghs speech.
0 x

Master-Athmos
Posts: 862
Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 01:32

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Master-Athmos »

Well in my opinion we're sort of focusing too much on the case of xzalion here. I didn't pay that much attention to his topics but I also got the impression that he was sort of fooling people by overstating pretty much everything around his person and his project...

But that shouldn't distract the entire topic here. Even if we assume that xzalion was a total douche making the aggressive tone against him "reasonable" that's in no way justifying the central issue here which is independant from whatever happened recently in xzalion's topics. The atmosphere here really is ... well you might call it "hostile" when you're new and that's the problem!

Xzalion's case is not an exception to the rule (while being more harsh than usual) but rather the basic thing that happens to anyone heading towards the developer zone of the community with just little or even without any experience and who maybe just stumbled over Spring for the first time after using Google. So there in my opinion is quite some truth to what Argh said as there have been quite some cases where exactly this "hostile" behaviour occured. I find it hard to think of the real reasons or a solution though. I have the impression that just one person has to answer in a sort of an aggressive tone and immediately people tend to hop on that train and the entire topic has run into a dead-end at this point in terms of being constructive in any way...

We really are driving people off here. Even if it sounds sort of reasonable like in the case of xzalion the problem is the mere existance of topics like that really make the community look nasty for others. We now could discuss how far this makes people leave in the first place or not but I think the first thing to think of is "Do we want to appear like that?". Even if it had no influence whatsoever on people joining the community we still should think about this going the way we want or not. I have to say I don't like this and I'd be happy to see a change here...
0 x

User avatar
SirArtturi
Posts: 1164
Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 18:29

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by SirArtturi »

Jazcash wrote:
Sucky_Lord wrote: No need to be aggressive to the new player, just because you dont like the way he presents his ideas
He doesn't even play Spring! In fact, he's not put any effort into understanding this community at all. His first post or two were simply copy pastes, they're the same as the posts he made on other forums.
Disagree with me if you wish but I don't any respect for people who copy paste the same things everywhere they can.
No, I agree with you Jazcash.

To be honest, all of you? Didn't he and his approach seem a bit suspicious and odd to you? What all this tells me is that he has no interest of becoming part of the community or contribute here but rather just lure (that he calls aid) coders and game developers to his project to do all the work for him.

He feels that his skills are superior and his ideas worthy of anyone to get enthusiased. Cant blame him for not being confident. However, he seems too confident to take critique as anything else than personal attack.

He just seems to post(spam) on every indie game/engine forums just to seek some people to join for his cause. Well nothing wrong with that I guess, but is it wrong not to welcome him if he shows only fake/shallow interest to our projects?

He just wants profit from us! Why can't you question his motives?

Therefore I see raising this case to generalize spring communitys common behaviour or certain problem being rude not valid. You should see this case as a special, particular case.

You are prolly right, Spring community may be a bit sceptic and rude and has some work to do with the behaviour towards noobs, but hey please, don't raise this case as an example because all of you must admit that you didnt take him very seriously after all his doings here and elsewhere.

But afterall, I had fun following all this spam and debate following it.
Last edited by SirArtturi on 28 May 2010, 15:29, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
Wombat
Posts: 3379
Joined: 15 Dec 2008, 15:53

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Wombat »

Sucky_Lord wrote: No need to be aggressive to the new player, just because you dont like the way he presents his ideas
what ideas ?he came here to advertise unexisting game and probably find someone to make something for him, dunno if u noticed, all he can do is photoshop related, ye right, great game developer.

he came to spam pointless threads and thats all, its no loss for this community if he had NOTHING to do with Spring (and probably didnt want to). he didnt contribute to any community he visited lol
0 x

User avatar
SirArtturi
Posts: 1164
Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 18:29

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by SirArtturi »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: people that this come in here with a copy pasta response, thread spam and some serious mental damage and without even having played the game first? no loss.
Wombat wrote: he came to spam pointless threads and thats all, its no loss for this community if he had NOTHING to do with Spring (and probably didnt want to). he didnt contribute to any community he visited lol
Agreed. Can't emphasize this more...

But also this:
Master-Athmos wrote: We really are driving people off here. Even if it sounds sort of reasonable like in the case of xzalion the problem is the mere existance of topics like that really make the community look nasty for others. We now could discuss how far this makes people leave in the first place or not but I think the first thing to think of is "Do we want to appear like that?". Even if it had no influence whatsoever on people joining the community we still should think about this going the way we want or not. I have to say I don't like this and I'd be happy to see a change here...
People, be constructive and polite even you think someone is a bit goofy. This is internet and this is a forum, unlike in face to face, you really have time to think things before you shoot them out.
0 x

Satirik
Lobby Developer
Posts: 1688
Joined: 16 Mar 2007, 18:27

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Satirik »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:I dont see the problem here, the system is entirely self regulating.

idiots come in nouncing their mods on the forums and burn out instantly? they were not going to be modders anyway.

reception from the forums has no relation to the game itself, which I would expect someone nouncing their mods to have played extensively and understand to a good degree before they start.

people that this come in here with a copy pasta response, thread spam and some serious mental damage and without even having played the game first? no loss.

This community has (inappropriately)heroicised trolls since smug goat; if you really tried to remove the trolls a great deal of the forum population would cease to exist.

and I did listen to Arghs speech.
this
0 x

User avatar
bobthedinosaur
Blood & Steel Developer
Posts: 2695
Joined: 25 Aug 2004, 13:31

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by bobthedinosaur »

Maybe a case of bluntly stated reverse psychology?

"You will fail, or prove us wrong..."
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

Xzalion's case is not an exception to the rule (while being more harsh than usual) but rather the basic thing that happens to anyone heading towards the developer zone of the community with just little or even without any experience and who maybe just stumbled over Spring for the first time after using Google. So there in my opinion is quite some truth to what Argh said as there have been quite some cases where exactly this "hostile" behaviour occured. I find it hard to think of the real reasons or a solution though. I have the impression that just one person has to answer in a sort of an aggressive tone and immediately people tend to hop on that train and the entire topic has run into a dead-end at this point in terms of being constructive in any way...

We really are driving people off here. Even if it sounds sort of reasonable like in the case of xzalion the problem is the mere existance of topics like that really make the community look nasty for others. We now could discuss how far this makes people leave in the first place or not but I think the first thing to think of is "Do we want to appear like that?". Even if it had no influence whatsoever on people joining the community we still should think about this going the way we want or not. I have to say I don't like this and I'd be happy to see a change here...
That says it well enough for me.

Enough logic-chopping, people. Yes, now that you've gone through this guy's whole Internet history, etc., you can celebrate how you've "not wasted time on a nub".

But that's fatuous and intellectually dishonest. What the hell are you doing, wasting your time on such investigations, if your intent wasn't to further attack, belittle and troll this guy?

Nobody here can give me a good answer to that, because there is none.

You guys should have done exactly as I did, and said absolutely nothing that wasn't nice, unless you wanted to point him at Smoth's post to let him know what he should expect (which probably would have deflated him, but who knows?).

Your collective behavior was horrible, and while it is amusing that you want to defend your behavior in light of all your man-hours spent finding further troll materials, that doesn't make it right.

Secondly, the fact that the guy has been "on other forums" looking for an engine doesn't make him worthy of disrespect or bad treatment. I go look at other engines (and often register on the forums) on a regular basis. When a person with motivation is looking around, that's a natural part of their activity- and whether a community is welcoming, or at least un-hostile, is an important factor.

Lastly... I am sick and tired of the, "it's like this everywhere" argument. That's bullshit.

I am building a major mod elsewhere atm, which I am hoping I will get done soon (I needed to take a break from Spring and recharge). It is a forum that was formed around a game built by two people.

They do not have a giant moderation staff. It's smaller than here. And they do not have the kinds of behavior problems, especially concerning newbies, that we have here.

Why?



1. If people behaved like certain folks did here... they'd have been banned, permanently, for being assholes. They take a very dim view of the, "I was only trying to find out the truth" defense of trolls everywhere.

2. Newbies who can't be bothered to read the stickies and ask enough stupid questions are warned, then temp-banned, and told to do the same.



In short, newbies aren't just left in a vacuum to fend for themselves. There is a support structure, and assholes aren't there to stay, so they aren't a major problem anyhow.

And it works. The game has a lower support structure than Spring, but a much larger community and a much larger number of major mods, a large content-sharing cooperative for free projects, etc., etc., etc.- it's like night and day, and if the engine wasn't closed-source, I'd have made it home, the last time I was searching for an engine.

I will go into this in more detail when I am ready to release my mod- I intend to make a compare-and-contrast study about the engine and the culture, because I think it's so important. Good cultures grow and thrive. Bad ones stagnate, at best.

Based on the number of new and completed projects we have here over the last year... I can tell you what category we're in...
0 x

zerver
Spring Developer
Posts: 1358
Joined: 16 Dec 2006, 20:59

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by zerver »

quantum wrote:And it's not just about losing one person, other devs will be discouraged from posting because they see that they will be lynched if they take a wrong step. Just ignore threads about unconvincing projects or questions that are too trivial!
+1. I did not post for this exact reason.

Nevertheless, I agree noobs may have a hard time in this community, but in the case of mr. xzalion I am confident we did not lose anything. You don't exactly need to be a psychologist to read his personality type.
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

That may be true... but we will never know.

Look. People like him (i.e., they're spouting high-energy bullshit the first time you meet them) fall into two main categories:

Scammers and tricksters, who hope that people will work for free for them. Good luck with that around here, lol.

People who are being self-important because they feel like nobody will take them seriously otherwise, and they want to make a good impression.

My impression from his posts was that the guy's probably just a harmless early-twenties wanna-be game designer, who's really just getting his feet wet (but doesn't know that yet), and just doesn't know how silly he looks. The best recipe for such people is information followed by polite silence. Apathy is a good policy for weeding out the non-serious.
0 x

User avatar
zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
Posts: 7017
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by zwzsg »

Argh wrote:Secondly, the fact that the guy has been "on other forums" looking for an engine doesn't make him worthy of disrespect or bad treatment.
Argh wrote:That may be true... but we will never know.
We know about the latter from the former.
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

There's still no justification for that behavior.

You guys wasted, what? 10-12 man-hours of Internet searches to find this guy's posts to give yourselves more ammunition?

That's nothing to be proud of. You effectively wasted more time on him than you claim he deserved in the first place.
0 x

User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5302
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Jazcash »

Argh wrote:There's still no justification for that behavior.

You guys wasted, what? 10-12 man-hours of Internet searches to find this guy's posts to give yourselves more ammunition?

That's nothing to be proud of. You effectively wasted more time on him than you claim he deserved in the first place.
At least we didn't go to the extent of making a 10 minute rant protecting the guy with subtitles to match...
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

<shrugs> It was important.

To your point, which is incorrect: I wasn't "defending the newbie", I was excoriating the behavior of the people here.

That is a pretty crucial distinction.

Newbies may be idiots of various kinds; that doesn't justify us behaving badly towards people we really don't know yet, or presuming, based on limited evidence, that we're justified in being jerks.

Anyhow, if that's the best arguments you've got, folks, let's move on.

I've said what I needed to say, until I'm ready to do my compare-and-contrast.
0 x

User avatar
KaiserJ
Community Representative
Posts: 3113
Joined: 08 Sep 2008, 22:59

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by KaiserJ »

i think of myself as generally accepting of everyone. sure i'm rude at times but i'd like to think its more defensive rudeness than anything; i try not to stick my nose into other peoples business and cause problems.

this guy... i dunno man. i can see why he angered people... sometimes i'm on here and i feel like i should just log off and never return as well.

i just find it amazing that this guy can cause such a shit-storm, when a very prolific and helpful developer has left us not even a few months ago in disgust, and very little was said about it in general.

IMO we should be more concerned about people who actually have done stuff than newcomers.

as much as i feel that he got flamed unnecessarily and that a lot of the stuff HE said that was bad could merely have been retaliatory, i'm sort of surprised that i really care very little about the whole thing. maybe this means i'm not longer a noob in the community. people are dicks, its old news... nothing will ever actually change unless everyone wants it to.

insulting others projects is a weak move. on both sides. if you don't like it, and can't think of a suggestion to improve it, just ignore it... spouting negative shit gets nobody anywhere (except upset)
0 x

User avatar
Jazcash
Posts: 5302
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Jazcash »

Yeah, tbh, it's better to scare off a newb than ban a regular contributor for a week or w/e...
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

If you're really a contributor, you should know how to behave yourselves, and length on the Forum is no excuse for your behavior in any case.

Moreover, most of the serious people here don't go out of their way to flame newbies.
0 x

User avatar
Hobo Joe
Posts: 1001
Joined: 02 Jan 2008, 21:55

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Hobo Joe »

Argh wrote: But that's fatuous and intellectually dishonest. What the hell are you doing, wasting your time on such investigations, if your intent wasn't to further attack, belittle and troll this guy?

Nobody here can give me a good answer to that, because there is none.
To see if it was worth the time and effort of giving him help and assistance where he needed it.



I'm not supporting trolling this guy, I agree that in such cases we should just ignore them, but the fact that you're saying we should defend and help him is ridiculous.


In all honesty, we're actually pretty damn supportive of any new developer talent, no matter how small it may be, so long as the developer in question is obviously trying to improve and willing to put in the necessary effort. When it becomes obvious that the 'developer' has no talent nor is willing to try to GET any, that's when we should just start ignoring them. In the case of xzalion, he should have just been banned after he started spamming threads.

People who see his threads and the way we treat him aren't just going to go "ohh this community is soooo mean to new people, no way am I going there!". They'll see he's clueless, unmotivated, lacks focus, and is generally rude and immature, and that our treatment of him doesn't reflect our treatment of all new players.




So you can stop this holier-than-thou bullshit and just get over it. We're pretty damn welcoming to new talent.



It's just new PLAYERS that get a rough time, getting kicked, called idiots, getting dgunned, etc. That's what we should work on improving, not how we welcome developers.

On that note, I think it might be a good idea just to have some kind of introduction forum, something besides the rabid 8v8 dsd players to make a new guy feel welcome.
Last edited by Hobo Joe on 28 May 2010, 23:15, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
Argh
Posts: 10920
Joined: 21 Feb 2005, 03:38

Re: The case of xzalion.

Post by Argh »

the fact that you're saying we should defend and help him is ridiculous
Where, pray, did I say that?

I didn't.

I said, basically, 'if you don't have anything nice to say, or think a newbie's an idiot, point him at Smoth's post and leave him alone'. That's all you have to do- impart information and let the idiots weed themselves out.
0 x

Locked

Return to “General Discussion”