Default Mod syndrome harming spring - Page 6

Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

Moderators: Moderators, Moderators

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Sabutai
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Joined: 18 Dec 2005, 05:55

Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Sabutai »

Noruas wrote:Why can't xta be the default mod, it seems to be dying all the time, it never meant to hurt anyone, it never meant to lie, and yet you said "goodbye" and to tell the truth it seemed that because no one ever wanted xta, they actually went and look at more mods besides BA, because BA at first look is very dull compared to xta.
Copyright>Spring

It seems if we want to grow we need a fancy original mod and at least a dozen autohosts.
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AF
AI Developer
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by AF »

How it currently is:

We have a little kid called spring, and spring is surrounded by other kids that refuse to grow up trying to latch onto spring, but spring isn't a grown up, its a little child.

What we should have:

Spring is growing and theres tonnes of big people who've stepped up, now we have a nice community surviving on an influx of new developers, and people from the communities surrounding spring.

What people who oppose my ideas think I'm touting:

Spring is a little child all alone and the people who once relied on it for support have flown the nest and left it to die alone.

Now I'm not objecting to involvement in the spring community or a mass exodus. but people here seem to think spring needs to support its content on a project and marketting basis aswell as a development basis, when really spring hasn't got the manpower or the clout to do this at all.

Its like aiming all your advertising at your existing developers. Of course it'll be useless, they're the people who built it! If anything people in the spring community aren't interested.

Now I'm not saying that we should all abandon this site to found our own communities and leave the devs in an empty forum. Nor should we all stay here and neglect our potential for the sake of perpetuating this community.

What people dont realise is we can do both! We can found our own communities and remaining in the spring communities, nobody said we had to choose! Whats more those new communities will draw in far mroe users and allow much larger playerbases while giving spring a trickle of new users flowing from these satellite communities.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Forboding Angel »

Sabutai wrote: Copyright>Spring

It seems if we want to grow we need a fancy original mod and at least a dozen autohosts.
We already have several (and yes, they are "Fancy"). If you were serious about this, you would be helping to make what you said possible.

The same goes for the rest of you. If you were actually serious about this you wouldn't be just sitting here talking out of your ass about it and you would be actually doing something about it.
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TheFatController
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by TheFatController »

Forboding Angel wrote:The same goes for the rest of you. If you were actually serious about this you wouldn't be just sitting here talking out of your ass about it and you would be actually doing something about it.
Doing something about what?

Do you mean making a mod just to defeat BA, cause that's strange motivation for starting a project
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Forboding Angel »

BA defeats itself for many reasons.

I was talking about marketing, doofus. Autohosts, advertising in the lobby, and a bajillion other things that can be done.
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TheFatController
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by TheFatController »

Well that's obvious - as for autohosts most of them seem to be peoples home machines with limited uptime (which is really not that different from normal hosting), it would be great if there was a springie friendly real hosting provider out there that people could pay for (I'd consider it myself).
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Forboding Angel »

TheFatController wrote:Well that's obvious - as for autohosts most of them seem to be peoples home machines with limited uptime (which is really not that different from normal hosting), it would be great if there was a springie friendly real hosting provider out there that people could pay for (I'd consider it myself).

I agree, and so would I
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dizekat
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by dizekat »

OP:
thumbs down and -inf rate.
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Sabutai
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Sabutai »

Forboding Angel wrote:
Sabutai wrote: Copyright>Spring

It seems if we want to grow we need a fancy original mod and at least a dozen autohosts.
We already have several (and yes, they are "Fancy"). If you were serious about this, you would be helping to make what you said possible.

The same goes for the rest of you. If you were actually serious about this you wouldn't be just sitting here talking out of your ass about it and you would be actually doing something about it.
I was being sarcastic bc we have fancy and original mods. So THATS not the problem or is it?! Now we need autohosts and marketing!

And about contributing... I've started mapping with minor success. Modeling and skinning aren't skills I can call my own. And programming... err I learnt Turbo Pascal 10 years ago...

but i have visions :)
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[TS]Lollocide
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by [TS]Lollocide »

Default mod Syndrome is a bunch of moderator acceptable term for bullshit or 'Whaa, nobody plays my mod' disease.

Look at the most played mod, its BA, because practically regardless of the updates, you're going to get a BA experience out of it.

Now I know all you new-mod-tards are going to cry 'BUT BA SUX!', but guess what? You are a minority in a sea of the majority, if this was a democracy, you'd be out on ur ass with the rest of the monster crazy party.

And for the 'harming spring' instance? Yeah, when more than 80% of people play your 'Mary-Sue' mod, you'll have a standpoint.

Spring isn't harmed by players playing one mod, like it isn't harmed by a small group of people making newer mods that pander to their 'ideal' of their 'perfect mod', bitching about it makes no sense.

No doubt this post will get me banned for 'blatent trolling', which is like saying 'you're fat' to a fat girl is considered blatent 'telling it how it is'
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Felix the Cat
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Felix the Cat »

Sabutai wrote:
Noruas wrote:Why can't xta be the default mod, it seems to be dying all the time, it never meant to hurt anyone, it never meant to lie, and yet you said "goodbye" and to tell the truth it seemed that because no one ever wanted xta, they actually went and look at more mods besides BA, because BA at first look is very dull compared to xta.
Copyright>Spring

It seems if we want to grow we need a fancy original mod and at least a dozen autohosts.
TA IP is abandoned and hence in the public domain.

Someone emailed Atari public relations (before the whole bankruptcy/buyout thing) and asked them what the status of the TA IP is. The reply from Atari was essentially "we have no idea WTF you are talking about, what is this Total Annihilation that you speak of". Since Atari at that point theoretically owned the TA franchise but disclaimed it (said they didn't), the TA IP is hence abandoned by Atari since that point in time. The courts agree.

Basically we could rename Spring to Total Annihilation 2 and get away with it. Since Atari wasn't aware that they received the TA franchise when they bought Cavedog, I'm pretty damn sure that Infogrames has no idea that they have anything to do with the TA franchise.

At the very least otacontent.sdz could be included in the Spring distro without a problem. I can write up a legal-sounding justification for this if the Linux distros that we may or may not have some intention of trying to get Spring included with at some indefinite point in time in the future have a whine because otacontent.sdz makes Spring impure in the eyes of the open-source faithful. If there's one thing I've learned here, it's that the open-source community just LOVES talking about legal technicalities and justifying positions based on one or two lines in a legal document.

...what was this thread about, again? Oh, right, Otherside was bitching that BA is still more popular than CA. Sorry for the delay, the Waaaambulance is on the way!
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CarRepairer
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by CarRepairer »

Sabutai wrote: I was being sarcastic bc we have fancy and original mods. So THATS not the problem or is it?! Now we need autohosts and marketing!

And about contributing... I've started mapping with minor success. Modeling and skinning aren't skills I can call my own. And programming... err I learnt Turbo Pascal 10 years ago...

but i have visions :)
You would own at PascalUI.
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Argh
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Argh »

TA IP is abandoned and hence in the public domain.
Until I see something official, that's not really true. The fact of the matter is that it's basically being ignored... not abandoned. Do I need to write to Atari about this, and get this issue dealt with officially, before people quit posting stuff like this?

The issue isn't whether one mod or game dominates.

Never has been. The issue is that the Spring project has not supported the non-OTA games very effectively, and that that basically hoses the chances of any non-OTA game breaking through, no matter how good it is. The whole way that people getting Spring for the first time are steered by peer-pressure, poor documentation, poor advertisement and poor Lobby support into playing BA is a big problem, though.

Most of this has already been dealt with, to some degree. With the new website, the system will be a lot more fair. A revamp of the Lobbies to better-support new games would also help.

Past that point, you're entirely right. There's nothing else that can, or should be done. If we make crappy games, we don't deserve an audience- I completely agree with that. If you assume that everything that's not OTA is basically crappy... well, that's your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but I think that it's a very narrow-minded POV. E&E isn't crappy, but can't gain traction, despite being out there for quite awhile now. We have multiple giant games, with uber-pretty content, that are coming out... if they can't find an audience, the system is obviously broken. What we're discussing, basically, is how to prevent that from happening, by making sure they have a fair chance at release, to find and hold their audiences. That's all.
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Teutooni
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Teutooni »

Felix the Cat wrote:TA IP is abandoned and hence in the public domain.
Eh? According to Finnish laws for example, last time I checked, abandoned copyrighted material will take 70 years after the death of last creator (cavedog I guess) to be dumped into PD. Are you sure?
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KDR_11k
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by KDR_11k »

Copyright does not stop just because the owner abandons a work, you could name Spring TA2 because the trademark would be abandoned but you couldn't use the copyrighted material.

That's off topic though so we should stop discussing it.

I think one problem new mods face is that they aim for the wrong part of the community. You often see mods (TA and non-TA) advertise themselves as the new standard for competitive gaming, that means they aim themselves at the best players. Using Sturgeon's Law as an approximation that means they're going for 10% of the userbase. Even if they capture that entire part userbase that's not going to propell the mod anywhere close to BA's position. Often complaints from users outside of the best ones are dismissed with a "lern2play nub", basically any suggestion that does not match the creator's plans for the mod gets the bringer dismissed as a noob.

You probably guesed what I'm trying to say already: Mods need to aim at lower skilled players first. There are MANY beginners and bad players out there. The mod must be easy to grasp and play, if some counter strategies or whatnot are so hard to figure out that you have to be a master to not need an explanation first then your mod is broken, not the user. If the mod requires masterful micro skills in order to make the units do anything well then again the mod is broken.

Most mods are aimed at their creators, that's the problem. The creator decides he'd like it to play in a certain way and it doesn't matter to him if players actually like that. A product must be designed around the consumer, not the producer or the technology or whatever.

As such I'll say something really unpopular: Balance does not matter much. Whether a game is tilted towards one side at high level play does not matter for the success of the game. Few matches are high level. As long as there are no gamebreakers it's fine, most people don't really notice the balance that much.

Also we're seeing mods that are way too complex for anyone to handle. I think this is the cause of BADSD syndrome, nothing else. Playing is so complicated that the average player can only hope to master a fraction of the game, in fact a lot of it will be memorization (Build order, strategy, etc). The players don't understand the game so they try to force situations where large parts of the game become irrelevant. Porcing does not require understanding combat unit micro (or even much about the units themselves). Team games mean you can focus on the things you know instead of having to handle everything. Of course that's not going to work well with new maps or mods, the player's strength comes mostly from memorization and changing the mod means all that memorization becomes useless and the player is left with his (probably weak) learning ability.

In a way broken balance actually improves complex mods like that, in BA many units are useless or can be safely ignored because they're only useful in niche situations, that cuts down on the complexity the player actually deals with. I think CA is hurting itself by making all units relevant.

Think about i, does an average BA match really involve more unit types than StarCraft?
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Sabutai
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Sabutai »

+1

KDR for chancelor. NAO.
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Teutooni
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Teutooni »

KDR_11k wrote:Also we're seeing mods that are way too complex for anyone to handle. I think this is the cause of BADSD syndrome, nothing else. Playing is so complicated that the average player can only hope to master a fraction of the game, in fact a lot of it will be memorization (Build order, strategy, etc). The players don't understand the game so they try to force situations where large parts of the game become irrelevant. Porcing does not require understanding combat unit micro (or even much about the units themselves). Team games mean you can focus on the things you know instead of having to handle everything. Of course that's not going to work well with new maps or mods, the player's strength comes mostly from memorization and changing the mod means all that memorization becomes useless and the player is left with his (probably weak) learning ability.
Porcupines try force down the viability of agressive play and be in control by outteching. Agressive players will try to keep their enemies busy and give them as few options as possible, thus narrowing down the complexity. This applies to 1v1 as well as team games. In any case, it's mostly executing learned strategies. The difference between avarage player and a good one is not about learning or intelligence. It's about the right set of mind. ~~
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AF
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by AF »

Ok a few points here:
  • People have been saying this Atari doesn't know therefore its abandonware business for a while. This predates Atari handing over phatagram rights to use the TA name to make TA2 before it fell apart. Atari knows, they've even made business dealings with it.
  • Abandonware does not make something legal. The term abandonware has as much legal weight as the term lol or ttyl.
  • The spring content market is too small to support a second mod of the size of BA, and an attempt to unseat BA and steal the vast majority fo its suerbase could destabilize things. Don't aim at existing spring users, aim at enw users outside the spring ecosystem, gain market share by increasing the size of the market.
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imbaczek
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by imbaczek »

KDR nailed it, as usual, when he described BADSD syndrome. This is not in any way BA-, DSD-, or spring-specific. I've seen this in Starcraft (Big Game Hunters anyone?), Quake (dm4/dm6 - the game is what? 15? and they still play those maps), Quake 2 (q2dm1 for life!), Quake3 (pro-q3dm6, ztn3dm1), CPMA (cpm3), CS (de_dust)... and that's only the games I've played. I think the reason is that players are lazy bastards and don't want to try new things once they reach their local fun/skill/whatever matters to them maximum. Granted, the positive feedback loop that makes starting games easier because everybody knows what to expect is an important factor, too.
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Tribulexrenamed
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Re: Default Mod syndrome harming spring

Post by Tribulexrenamed »

XTA WAS NOT ABANDONED. Its the best mod for spring atm. CA is really getting there too, and maybe I would say the same thing about it if I played it.
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