Spring RTS Engine

Hi - I'm completely new here.
I've been aware of the Spring project for a long time (back when it was springTA) but it was un-usable for me then (lack of an interface etc). It seems to have progressed about but I'm still encountering problems.

Following is a list of observations I've made and bugs I've encountered during my attempts to play.

Specifications:
Athlon 4200 XP dual core. 2gb ram. Nvidia 6800. NO internet connection (downloading elsewhere and transfering via USB).
Windows XP SP3 (32bit).


1) First up - something from a "common sense" perspective.
I go to http://springrts.com/ - I see a link "Download and play". The title of the link implies - at least to me - that when downloaded it will be playable. Unfortunately that isn't true. There are no mods nor any maps in the download (I'm using the windows one). There's no text explicity and clearly saying you'll need to download these seperately - though it is implied.
As I hadn't downloaded any maps (assuming they were included - it seems like a sensible assumption) this meant I couldn't play. (I'd had the foresight to download so mods, though am surprised there was no "default" mod that came with it).

2) Bug - On the single-player screen of the lobby, when choosing the map and players etc, when I move my mouse over a expanded (shows "side", "ally" etc) player icon, the player icon flickers quite badly.

3) Bug - The tool-tip that appears when mousing over the map at the spring-lobby has a bad habit of appearing over the player-icon when trying to change the side/ally thing. If this happens it becomes impossible to change the side/ally until the tooltip goes away.

4) Bug - I play a game and it crashes or I quit - I end up back at the lobby. Fine. But when I try and play another game the "start" button doesn't work. I can click it all I want and nothing at all happens. I remove the bots and it starts (after asking me if I'm sure because there are no bots). Add a bot (any bot) it won't start. This was somewhat random and intermittenent depending on mod selected etc (sometimes a mod would be ok, other times not). No errors are presented, it just doesn't start. If I quit and then re-start the lobby, and enter the exact same settings the "start" button works fine. :-S

5) I consider this a bug, others may not - why do I need two messages telling me in scary language that springlobby cannot connect to the internet to update/check/whatever? One nicely worded message would be better. Is there an option in the interface to remove this?

6) Suggestion - The icon next to the map selection thing on the lobby is three dots. Personally I associate this icon with "open a file selection dialog" not "open random map selection application". May I suggest changing it to something more indicative of it's purpose?

7) Suggestion - On the "random map selection application" just mentioned - I'd suggest putting a big thick different-coloured border around the map that is current selected? The current "this is selected" border is nigh impossible to spot, certainly at a glance.

8 ) Suggestion - Allow "go to" via the minimap as is the case in all RTS games minus Supreme Commander I believe.

9) Suggestion - Allow users to report bugs on the mantis thing with the anonymous account.

A long list, hope it's helpful.

One of the biggest challenges Spring has is that the lobbies are developed 100% independently from the engine itself. The first lobby, TASClient, was written in Delphi, a non-cross-platform language that very few are familiar with. Because of that, Spring lobby development has always been hedged between newer, fledgeling lobbies (like the featureful but cumbersome Springlobby, which is the current "official" lobby) and trying to maintain TASClient.

Google "SpringLobby" and you will find the Springlobby develpment page, which is a better place to provide your feedback related to teh lobby.

As for the minimap, iirc you need to middle-click.

But what happens if your mouse doesn't have a middle button? Surely left or right would be more logical and consistant.
But thanks. :)

Imo tasclient is excellently maintained at the moment, very feature rich and usable.

1) include maps in the installer
Auswaschbar, what do you think about the same technique we (plan to) use for Skirmish AIs, beeing used for an install section for mods? Mods devs could have a git repository (with a stable branch), and this way they can include a section in the installer, for downloading their mod. That would probably also make it easier for mod devs to make custom installers with their mod already included (no need to download).
Is this feaisable, no licencing/moral problems?

9) Anonymous mantis account
As i see it, we get enough bug reports as is. The reson for most login systems on the internet, and also the one in mantis is, to have a certain spam barrier. This includes spam as in automated/computer generated entries, aswell as from "unqualified" users, like: "spring crash, fix ASAP!!!"

moriarty wrote:NO internet connection (downloading elsewhere and transfering via USB).

Online playing is more interesting!

2) Bug
3) Bug
4) Bug

Try the latest SpringLobby version. These bugs are fixed.

5) I consider this a bug, others may not - why do I need two messages telling me in scary language that springlobby cannot connect to the internet to update/check/whatever? One nicely worded message would be better. Is there an option in the interface to remove this?

These scary messages might help to identify the problem if people want to play online.
Anyway, go to Options -> General -> Autoconnect and uncheck the checkbox. SpringLobby won't try to connect automatically anymore.

8 ) Suggestion - Allow "go to" via the minimap as is the case in all RTS games minus Supreme Commander I believe.

This is possible.
Edit: You can enable that in the settings.

hoijui wrote:1) include maps in the installer
Auswaschbar, what do you think about the same technique we (plan to) use for Skirmish AIs, beeing used for an install section for mods? Mods devs could have a git repository (with a stable branch), and this way they can include a section in the installer, for downloading their mod. That would probably also make it easier for mod devs to make custom installers with their mod already included (no need to download).
Is this feaisable, no licencing/moral problems?

Big binary files in git, DO NOT WANT. Additionally, I'm not aware of any mod makers using git for version control.

For most of the mods, there are packages waiting to be downloaded, complete with a collection of maps. The only reason I can think of why no package for BA exists yet is that no one is interested in making one.

there is also one other problem: the widgets,

i mean how should a new player know them and we "older" player use them so much (k i do :D ). i think there should be also a link within the download to the springdownloader-webinterface

only the installer file should be in git, eg an .nsh file beeing included by spring.nsh.
but as we discussed in chat, it could not be usable by most mods anyway, for licencing reasons.

Thanks for the replies.

Beherith wrote:Imo tasclient is excellently maintained at the moment, very feature rich and usable.

Thanks- I've downloaded it and will attempt to play with it tonight.

Online playing is more interesting!

Again, some of us don't have the internet.
Also, I've never been into online play in the first place.

9) Anonymous mantis account
As i see it, we get enough bug reports as is. The reson for most login systems on the internet, and also the one in mantis is, to have a certain spam barrier. This includes spam as in automated/computer generated entries, aswell as from "unqualified" users, like: "spring crash, fix ASAP!!!"

Valid points, but it's still an extra barrier for people like me who want to report bugs but don't want to have to create a bunch of accounts (one for a forum, one for a bug reporter, etc) for a project they may lose interest in in a week. Hence I only created one (this one).

Some more bugs. I'm fairly sure these are spring engine ones but I'm still figuring out where mods begin and the engine ends, so apologies if they're not:

a) If I click the middle mouse button it starts panning, and stops panning when I click the middle again. However, if, while it is in panning mode I press "escape" to bring up the Main Menu, panning mode is still enabled and I keep panning the map while trying to select the buttons.

b) If I right-click on the mini-map, the game assumes I am clicking UNDER the mini-map and will try to send units there. Middle and left clicks both assume I'm clicking ON the minimap.
Personally I still think "zoom to here" via the minimap should be left-click.

c) Suggestion - If a sound file is missing from a mod, the game crashes rather horribly. While I realise missing critical files is a bad thing (i.e. textures, models, scripts), surely the game should still run without a sound file? How about instead of crashing, the game inform the user but runs anyway (sans that sound effect)?

d) If I have a unit selected, say my cdr - when I mouse over the same unit as is selected I get a "guard" icon. So it can guard itself? :-S

e) Alt-F4 in Windows typically means "close this app". This shortcut doesn't seem to work in Spring.

But the Spring part seems to work fine mostly - smooth and fast - but many of the mods/maps seem to result in evil crashes :-S .
One of my games did freeze/lock-up for about 10-20seconds for no obvious reason, and then continued again, but so far that's a one-off.
Nice work. :)

You can control units via the minimap, so right clicking on the minimap is telling units to go to the point on the map. Making left click the "go to" button is illogical as left click is used for selecting units.

If you want a much less powerful minimap then you can disable this with a setting, but really, just buy a new mouse where clicking the third button isn't so difficult.

e) Alt-F4 in Windows typically means "close this app". This shortcut doesn't seem to work in Spring.

Alt and F4 are both somewhat frequently used keys in Spring and making them combined quit the game might not be optimal and shift+esc is easier to reach.

Hi,

very good summary moriarty
I think you get the point that spring is focused on online play
I like to play offline or with one friend and AI bots ...
But i can tell you - in the past month many improvments have taken
in singleplayer gaming

Now see your points .. ->

From your first post,
point 1)
Yes - a big problem for my friends too, i musst tell he who is a map downloadable,which version from an Mod .....
point 2)
it is IMHO fixed in the last version(s)
point 3)
it is still a problem (use the latest version) - it apears faster now,but
i prefer a option to disable it - realy dont need it ...
point 4)
its fixed too IMHO
point 5)
have first disabled "autoconnect"
point 6)
true ...
point 7)
i have no problem with this - but a better spoting border dont hurt ..
point 8 )
use the middle button - and sorry - nowdays a mouse without it is VERY outdated .....(i use Amiga(TM) to - and even here i have 10 years ago middle mouse buttons .....)
point 9)
dont know

And btw. -> i think not all know (have found this out last night ) that in springlobby you can "scroll" with the mouse weehl thru the different map shapes(color/metall/altitude) in the map window before start a game !! (on big maps the cpu need a little bit to calculate the altitude picture ..)
Have this missed, TAspring have this better for newbees to spot ..

And without a basic singleplayer usage it is hard to get new player ..
(the same problem as "no Save/Load" ....)

To the widgets ... yes, he make spring more powerfull and modern.
If a friend DL spring first time and we have maps and mod DL done ..
he say that spring looks very ugly and old .. but with many nice widgets (who he DONT know and have no plan who is needed for this
and for other and who a waste of time ..) like IceUI,healthBars,BuildETA and other who implement standard funktions
from modern RTS games he like spring realy ...

Now to the second post from moriarty :

point a)
This is REALY bad behavor - i realy wish this could get optional.No
one time in my plays i need this
FULL ACK !
point b)
mmmh ... i have no problems - but configurable is better ...
point c)
dont know (have not this ATM)
point d)
the game is still miles away from perfect
point e)
dont care - esc is working nice ...

more "bugs" ->
If i disable "scroll on window border" in the config it realy dont harm
spring - it scrolls with both options (on or off) ....
If i set the mouse speed in different camera modes to "0" that should disable it - this harms spring nothing too .. it switches thru all modes
with no interesst from the config ....
And btw. it would be nice to disable this switches with "shift+middle mouse click" !
I dont need this and i am happy with Rotatable Overhead Camera and
switching to FPS mode with "c" if a unit hangs and i musst manualy
control him ....

Regards
R-TEAM

ZellSF wrote:You can control units via the minimap, so right clicking on the minimap is telling units to go to the point on the map. Making left click the "go to" button is illogical as left click is used for selecting units.

No, I'm pretty sure right-clicking is telling them to go to the spot /under/ the minimap. I should probably double check, but that's certainly the impression I got.
You mis-understand on the go-to. I meant - zoom the camera to that point on the map - the behaviour that is currently mapped to the middle mouse btn.

Alt and F4 are both somewhat frequently used keys in Spring and making them combined quit the game might not be optimal and shift+esc is easier to reach.

If necessary have a "are you sure you want to quit" dialog ask for confirmation. Shift-escape is not a "normal" shortcut - at leastm, I have no idea what behaviour to expect from it.

point 2)
it is IMHO fixed in the last version(s)

It's definitely better but it's not entirely fixed. Still some flickering.

Also a new bug in spring lobby - If I have one of those little mini-box things I reported as flickering (bug 2) that overlaps another of the little boxes, even if the overlapped box is not shown, it will still appear in the first box's area, obscuring the view. - I'll have to get a screenshot, hard to describe.

No, I'm pretty sure right-clicking is telling them to go to the spot /under/ the minimap. I should probably double check, but that's certainly the impression I got.

The default minimap behavior should be to tell the units to go to that location on the minimap.

You mis-understand on the go-to. I meant - zoom the camera to that point on the map - the behaviour that is currently mapped to the middle mouse btn.

I didn't misunderstand anything, I said what you wanted is illogical as the left button is used for selecting units and making it zoom to a location on the minimap would be confusing and inconsistent.

As said, there's a setting to turn this off, but the default behavior is much superior to that of other RTS games and most likely won't be changed.

If necessary have a "are you sure you want to quit" dialog ask for confirmation. Shift-escape is not a "normal" shortcut - at leastm, I have no idea what behaviour to expect from it.

You would expect escape to mean quit though, shift was just added so you wouldn't accidentally hit escape. You can change the key combinations in the uikeys.txt file in the Spring directory anyway.

In the spring version I have, esc brings up a menu where you can select if you want to quit, resign etc. Pretty standard behavior.

Auswaschbar wrote:In the spring version I have, esc brings up a menu where you can select if you want to quit, resign etc. Pretty standard behavior.

Yes. (well no - F10 seems to have become the default for bringing up menus in RTS', but anyway).
Alt-F4 is a default for "quit" in almost all windows applications - not just games.

ZellSF wrote:As said, there's a setting to turn this off, but the default behavior is much superior to that of other RTS games and most likely won't be changed.

That would be a personal preference. If the Spring behaviour was so much more superior, then why do so few other games have it? Because the norm is to left (or right) click the mini-map to zoom the camera and not everyone has a middle mouse button.

k, normally alt+f4 is default for quit in windows (but spring is also for linux), but wouldnt like it in spring - esc+menu is a really good way for quitting (to not accidentally quit the game, coz its an online game/engine/..)

and im not sure if they sell mice with just 2 buttons - invest 5 Ôé¼/$ and buy one (not just for spring, also for windows)

manolo_ wrote:and im not sure if they sell mice with just 2 buttons - invest 5 Ôé¼/$ and buy one (not just for spring, also for windows)

Tell that to a Mac user. They only get /one/ mouse button!

moriarty wrote:

manolo_ wrote:and im not sure if they sell mice with just 2 buttons - invest 5 Ôé¼/$ and buy one (not just for spring, also for windows)

Tell that to a Mac user. They only get /one/ mouse button!

spring isnt ported for mac as far as i know :)